Old Carlton: Dropout/Wheel Size confusion.

[bagpuss]

Update:

I left the bike last week with the wheel clamped in. Just got to my lockup now and took out the rear wheel. Measured between the dropouts and it’s now coming up as about 135mm. Which is definitely narrower than it was last time I measured it!

Thanks to a previous poster for the handy tip on measuring the axle, I also measured that which comes to around 130mm.

Which, to my untrained eye would seem about right?

So I’m starting to see a potential solution to this mystery. Perhaps the Frame-Builder did indeed stretch it out. Either from a jig, or perhaps putting in a wrong-size wheel as it set from the brazing process. God knows…

Maybe it wasn’t even him but a colleague or something, which would explain his bemusement at the situation too.

So my question now is: does steel comply to being bent to a new shape, or does it have memory and always want to return to the shape it was when it was formed? (I should know this being in Sheffield).

More than anything though, is it safe? Or has the frame been dangerously weakened?View attachment 973959View attachment 973960View attachment 973961

Can't believe what I am looking at.

 

[CarltonWorksop]

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for a smooth running drivetrain it would be best to make a frame alignment check

can be accomplished without any special tools

requires:

length of string

ruler

straightedge of twenty or so inches length

will be necessary to remove chainset & bottom bracket assembly

tutorial here:

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/frame-spacing.html

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/steel-frame-repair.html

a discussion here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-...-triangle-alignment-use-sheldon-s-method.html


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Thanks for this.

I checked the alignment using a piece of string. Using a method found on YouTube. I will also try your link. But it does indeed seem that my frame is out of alignment.

I threaded the string through the dropouts and all the way round to the top/head tube, whatever it’s called the the stem goes into.

Then I took a measurement on each side from the down tube to the string as it passes. It’s 1.5” on the drive side and 1.25” on the other. Though I’m not sure yet which side is correct and which one has been bent. Maybe your link will shed some light on this. Then, hopefully, I should be able to bend it back…

I suppose this could’ve been caused by the initial crash. Perhaps the frame builder took it for a larger size dropout standard than realising it was just bent. Who knows. Glad to be getting somewhere with it at least.

 

[CarltonWorksop]

Can't believe what I am looking at.

What specifically?

 

[CarltonWorksop]

So the result of the alignment test has also explained why I couldn’t get my gears working at all when I clamped it all back together. The rear mech was way out of alignment with the chainrings. I had half wondered whether I’d bought the wrong derailleur. The Suntour Cyclone that was on it previously was mangled in the crash. I couldn’t find a direct replacement so bought a Suntour Cyclone MK-II.

Hopefully I’ll be riding it again before the summer is out.

 

[sjcprojects]

Just out of interest (I also live in Sheffield), Butterworths don't do frame repairs themselves as far as I know, so I guess they outsourced the frame repair to someone else local? Someone has messed up here to quite a large degree, sadly...

 

[CarltonWorksop]

Just out of interest (I also live in Sheffield), Butterworths don't do frame repairs themselves as far as I know, so I guess they outsourced the frame repair to someone else local? Someone has messed up here to quite a large degree, sadly...

No, Butterworth’s didn’t do the frame repair. I won’t mention who did do it as I’m not certain they have messed up.

I had initially taken just the frame, (wheels removed) to Butterworth’s for advice. They said it needed brazing and recommended the other place. So I just took it straight round and left it with them. It would have been better I suppose if they’d had the wheel too, but I didn’t have it with me anyway. It was only when I went to collect it that I also had the wheels in the car and the confusion began…

 

[CarltonWorksop]

Regardless of who bent what, I just want it sorted out. So I’ll probably take it back to the frame builder rather than me making a bad situation worse by attempting to bend it myself.

 

[pigman]

Believe it or not, there are actually two Butterworth’s bike shops in Sheffield. And they are unrelated. One on the south of the city that I use, and another in Hillsborough I think, on the north side of town.*

*this may be a local urban myth. I’ve never actually been to the latter one. Though I’m pretty sure I’ve seen it driving past…

They were related initially though. The history I've heard is that Albert Butterworth (well before my time) owned both shops which he left to his son's. Tony ran the one at Hillsborough and this was the lightweight shop, the one that serious cyclists frequented, tea and biscuits on tap and tony saw you right if you were strapped for cash. Tony himself rode and raced regularly. When he retired, he sold the shop as a going concern and the Butterworth name has been retained
Dave ran the one on abbeydale road, south of the city centre. The shops culture was totally the opposite. Dave himself didn't ride and often had a fag on the go. The shop didn't attempt to serve the racing guys, but concentrated (and still does) on servicing and repairing the everyday clunker commuter. Customers bikes are rammed in by the door and worked on in order to time and for a fair price. This same ethos continues to this day and I know a few folk who swear by his knowledge/price/efficiency. I know when Dave retired, his son took over (and may still be there?)

 

[juvela]

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good to read you are making progress with this

the string test is fast, easy and helpful

it is not best to rely upon it solely as one is then making an unconscious assumption that the seat tube is perpendicular to the shell...it may not be, especially following a crash

the reason for removing the bicycle's bottom bracket assembly is to be able to use the faces of the shell with the straightedge to check the perpendicularity of the seat tube and down tube to the shell

the process of bending things into alignment is politely referred to as "cold setting"


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