Scottish IndepenDENce YES or NO?
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Re: Scottish Indepence YES or NO?
Some of us remember decimalisation so it can be done.........
Some of us remember decimalisation so it can be done.........
PurpleFrog
Kona Fan
Re: Scottish Indepence YES or NO?
Right. Because the paper the Treaty Of Brussels is written on would catch fire. Because... it was cursed by wizards!
Nope. The EU can admit countries wherever it likes and "Europe" is extremely arbitrary concept. Whether countries get admitted or not depends purely on the willingness of existing members to accept them, especially major players. When the EU let in lots of small nations in Eastern Europe that was not for the insane reason that "The EU lets anyone join who wants to" but because the Germans wanted those nations as a stable buffer between them and the Russians.
In the case of Scotland, the opposite is the case: major players have real interests in keeping Scotland out - or at least in delaying negotiations and making the terms unpleasant.
Applying common sense, if the French and the Germans wanted Scotland in the EU then they would already have created a rapid route to membership - or at least dropped hints that admittance would be unusually fast and painless (probably in return for Scotland meeting terms for currency stability.) Instead they've done the opposite and said - not dropped hints but outright stated through EU leaders - that it may be impossible and at best very difficult for Scotland to join the EU. Eg
...This is about as clear a message as the EU and its key members could give short of killing Sean Connery and writing "F**k off Scotland (PS Zardoz confused us)" in his blood. (Umm - is he still alive?)
The reason is obvious: Germany, France, Spain and Belgium all have their own potential Scotlands and none of them are as relaxed about losing them as London is. Only one decides admission of new members to the EU - the interests of existing major members. And all of them have an interest in making a horrible example of an independent Scotland.
As for why Scots don't consider that Germans will be driven by German interests and Spaniards by their attitudes to Basque and Catalonian separatism... well, now you know where the Southern USA got its genes for political parochialism from.
Bats":3gm8xe7n said:
Right. Because the paper the Treaty Of Brussels is written on would catch fire. Because... it was cursed by wizards!
Nope. The EU can admit countries wherever it likes and "Europe" is extremely arbitrary concept. Whether countries get admitted or not depends purely on the willingness of existing members to accept them, especially major players. When the EU let in lots of small nations in Eastern Europe that was not for the insane reason that "The EU lets anyone join who wants to" but because the Germans wanted those nations as a stable buffer between them and the Russians.
In the case of Scotland, the opposite is the case: major players have real interests in keeping Scotland out - or at least in delaying negotiations and making the terms unpleasant.
Applying common sense, if the French and the Germans wanted Scotland in the EU then they would already have created a rapid route to membership - or at least dropped hints that admittance would be unusually fast and painless (probably in return for Scotland meeting terms for currency stability.) Instead they've done the opposite and said - not dropped hints but outright stated through EU leaders - that it may be impossible and at best very difficult for Scotland to join the EU. Eg
...This is about as clear a message as the EU and its key members could give short of killing Sean Connery and writing "F**k off Scotland (PS Zardoz confused us)" in his blood. (Umm - is he still alive?)
The reason is obvious: Germany, France, Spain and Belgium all have their own potential Scotlands and none of them are as relaxed about losing them as London is. Only one decides admission of new members to the EU - the interests of existing major members. And all of them have an interest in making a horrible example of an independent Scotland.
As for why Scots don't consider that Germans will be driven by German interests and Spaniards by their attitudes to Basque and Catalonian separatism... well, now you know where the Southern USA got its genes for political parochialism from.
PurpleFrog
Kona Fan
Re: Scottish Indepence YES or NO?
Decimilisation did not establish a new national currency. I probably can't explain how different it was to doing so to you if you can make this mistake, but it's like comparing "I can paint my car" with "I can make a new car out of paint!"
The History Man":1wp0j4nl said:
Decimilisation did not establish a new national currency. I probably can't explain how different it was to doing so to you if you can make this mistake, but it's like comparing "I can paint my car" with "I can make a new car out of paint!"
Bats
Senior Retro Guru
Re: Scottish Indepence YES or NO?
Doesn't matter one bit, they're going to use the pound. Nobody can stop them.
It's only the unionists who keep sticking their fingers in their ears and going "ARE YOU TAKING THE BUS OR THE TRAIN????" when the independence movement has plainly stated their intention to take the car.
So you wheel out the EU membership scare tactics, then invalidate it by pointing out the only negativity comes from some politicians who're trying to FUD to death other independence movements. Why'd you defeat your own arguments?
Personally I'm not arsed about what the German or Spanish dubbed version of Ed Milliband have to say on the matter either way. You'd be as well pointing to the opinions of swedish bus drivers for all the influence they have.
Doesn't matter one bit, they're going to use the pound. Nobody can stop them.
It's only the unionists who keep sticking their fingers in their ears and going "ARE YOU TAKING THE BUS OR THE TRAIN????" when the independence movement has plainly stated their intention to take the car.
PurpleFrog":3jb2ddsj said:
So you wheel out the EU membership scare tactics, then invalidate it by pointing out the only negativity comes from some politicians who're trying to FUD to death other independence movements. Why'd you defeat your own arguments?
Personally I'm not arsed about what the German or Spanish dubbed version of Ed Milliband have to say on the matter either way. You'd be as well pointing to the opinions of swedish bus drivers for all the influence they have.
PurpleFrog
Kona Fan
Re: Scottish Indepence YES or NO?
I'm sorry: I can't see any intelligence behind your arguments. You are claiming that because someone has made a threat they can't mean it- but this is inherently ludicrous. "That copper says he'll shoot me if I don't put the shotgun down - that means I'm completely safe. UGH!" And "Yes, mein Kaiser - invading Belgium is completely safe!" Etc.
I'll simplify things. If you're a German or Spanish politician then:
- If you deter Scottish independence by making a statement, you win - at zero cost
- If you fail to deter SI, but then freeze negotiations forever and wreck the Scottish economy, you also win - you just do so at a much higher human cost (to the Scots)
Unless you are an insane sadist, you'd prefer the first option - there is no sane case where if you are willing to take the second option if necessary then you wouldn't try to deter first. So assuming that because people have tried deterrence that they are not willing to act is simply nonsense.
There is no way that the Germans or Spanish benefit from Scotland joining the EU, and they stand to lose significantly. Like all nations, they should be expected to act in their own interest rather than acting out the fantasies of a small group of people they care nothing about.
Bats":3rp36hsy said:
I'm sorry: I can't see any intelligence behind your arguments. You are claiming that because someone has made a threat they can't mean it- but this is inherently ludicrous. "That copper says he'll shoot me if I don't put the shotgun down - that means I'm completely safe. UGH!" And "Yes, mein Kaiser - invading Belgium is completely safe!" Etc.
I'll simplify things. If you're a German or Spanish politician then:
- If you deter Scottish independence by making a statement, you win - at zero cost
- If you fail to deter SI, but then freeze negotiations forever and wreck the Scottish economy, you also win - you just do so at a much higher human cost (to the Scots)
Unless you are an insane sadist, you'd prefer the first option - there is no sane case where if you are willing to take the second option if necessary then you wouldn't try to deter first. So assuming that because people have tried deterrence that they are not willing to act is simply nonsense.
There is no way that the Germans or Spanish benefit from Scotland joining the EU, and they stand to lose significantly. Like all nations, they should be expected to act in their own interest rather than acting out the fantasies of a small group of people they care nothing about.
highlandsflyer
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Be mindful of the fact that, despite what the Three Amigos have said about the pound and such, nothing will actually be decided until all these things are negotiated after the vote. Their undemocratic stance on the pound is not final.
Just like they turned tail on Devo Max in desperation, they or their successors will be compelled to sit at the table and talk it through, and put it to the Commons.
As for issues like the military, whatever is in the proposals so far we would probably see a collaborative force based on current arrangements.
The fact is no one knows what would happen after a YES vote. It is generally speculation. On both sides.
The only sure thing is that, either way, the status quo has been broken. That is most likely a good thing, and some achievement.
As for suggesting YES voters are insane, that diagnosis really suffers when you examine all the evidence put forth that Scotland would be a fairer, more compassionate country given the chance to direct our society towards more social justice and community mindedness. We know we can do it; consider our forebears.
As Voltaire had it, "We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilization."
Be mindful of the fact that, despite what the Three Amigos have said about the pound and such, nothing will actually be decided until all these things are negotiated after the vote. Their undemocratic stance on the pound is not final.
Just like they turned tail on Devo Max in desperation, they or their successors will be compelled to sit at the table and talk it through, and put it to the Commons.
As for issues like the military, whatever is in the proposals so far we would probably see a collaborative force based on current arrangements.
The fact is no one knows what would happen after a YES vote. It is generally speculation. On both sides.
The only sure thing is that, either way, the status quo has been broken. That is most likely a good thing, and some achievement.
As for suggesting YES voters are insane, that diagnosis really suffers when you examine all the evidence put forth that Scotland would be a fairer, more compassionate country given the chance to direct our society towards more social justice and community mindedness. We know we can do it; consider our forebears.
As Voltaire had it, "We look to Scotland for all our ideas of civilization."
highlandsflyer
Retro Wizard
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Re: Scottish Indepence YES or NO?
We sell one hell of a lot of the water of life to the Germans, and a massive amount of seafood to the Spanish. Scotland's history as a nation and relationships to England, Wales and Northern Ireland are in no way comparable with the French, Spanish, German or other regions seeking further autonomy's history and relationships with their parent countries. But why on earth should Scotland not serve as an inspiration to those countries in allowing democracy its head?
We sell one hell of a lot of the water of life to the Germans, and a massive amount of seafood to the Spanish. Scotland's history as a nation and relationships to England, Wales and Northern Ireland are in no way comparable with the French, Spanish, German or other regions seeking further autonomy's history and relationships with their parent countries. But why on earth should Scotland not serve as an inspiration to those countries in allowing democracy its head?
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