Scottish IndepenDENce YES or NO?

[ajm]

How about we have an X Factor style competition every five years to find a new leader for the UK, and each country take it in turns to run the joint?

If it can't select talented musicians, I can't see it producing great Prime Ministers. Having said that, the current system doesn't exactly have a stellar track record either!

 

[old_coyote_pedaller]

Nothing to do with Godwin as the salute has nothing to do with Hitler.

(The West of) Scotland has a long standing divide along religious (or rather sectarian) lines. The manifestation of this that people (in England) recognise is at Rangers/Celtic games but also extends to what pub you drink in, sometimes what area you live in, what party you vote for and certainly which side of the Yes/No you were on.

Three out of the four areas which voted yes have strong Irish/Catholic connections and populations. This imo isn't a coincidence. I saw many Irish tricolours at Yes rallies as they tried (unnecessarily and inflammatorily (this is Glasgow ffs)) to claim solidarity with the plight of the Irish. The No lot, the NI loyalists, unionists and Rangers fans counter with the Union flag, Red Hand of Ulster salutes and Rule Britannia.

The carry on in George Sq had f all to do with Britain First, it was a response to the attempt and subsequent failure of the Yes lot to break the history and traditions that many hold dear. Salmond criminalised the singing of many traditional Rangers songs, many have been jailed so this was a big GIRFUY moment for them.

This song is now illegal to sing in Scotland. But these people haven't disappeared.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZyVEV9Exuho

I'm a unionist and Rangers fan. Do I agree with brawling in the street? No. Rightly or wrongly do I understand the outpouring after the sustained attack on the country we believe in? Yes. I watched the whole referendum night on the BBC. Was there any mention of religious belief re the vote? Nope. Was it a factor? In Glasgow it's always a factor.

One thing's for sure, if Yes won it would have been a lot worse.

I can agree with you on it probably not being a Nazi salute but the Red Hand of Ulster, what has that got to do with the no vote?

What relevance does the "strong Irish/Catholic connections and populations" have to how people voted? Do you also want to bring in peoples colour too or whether they are Asian Scots etc? Is it because you as a supporter of the dead football club Rangers FC(IL) don't like Kafflics and Taigs? I would have thought that in the 21st century that you'd be a bit more enlightened but no you still live in the 17th century.

Are the Red Hand of Ulster salutes any less inflammatory "(this is Glasgow FFS)" than the Irish Tricolour?

The song in your YouTube link "We are the Billy Boys", who precisely were the Billy Boys and why were they "up to their knees in Fenian blood"? Could that be why it is banned?

Have you any reply to this?
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ ... 1411314286
I could copy and paste the article if necessary.

That the attacks in George Square were organised on line by the Vanguard Bears (one of the more looney tunes Rangers(IL) supporters groups) and other right wing extremists, any answer?

 

[technodup]

I can agree with you on it probably not being a Nazi salute but the Red Hand of Ulster, what has that got to do with the no vote?

Nothing directly, I wasn't defending it.

What relevance does the "strong Irish/Catholic connections and populations" have to how people voted?

I don't know, that's what I'd like to find out.

The song in your YouTube link "We are the Billy Boys", who precisely were the Billy Boys and why were they "up to their knees in Fenian blood"? Could that be why it is banned?

Are you deliberately missing my points every time?

Have you any reply to this?
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ ... 1411314286
I could copy and paste the article if necessary.

No need, the first few lines mention Nazi salutes so I doubt the rest is any more accurate.

That the attacks in George Square were organised on line by the Vanguard Bears (one of the more looney tunes Rangers(IL) supporters groups) and other right wing extremists, any answer?

There were no 'attacks', there was a bunch of steamers shouting and the occasional scuffle ffs.

are to expect these 'wilful' youth to turn into Tories as soon as they have jobs, mortgages and kids?

No, but they will become more risk averse. It's well documented.

Most of the working age people in Scotland favour independence, regardless of our responsibilities.

Fact.

That's not fact. Here are facts:-

1. Scotland held a referendum last week.
2. Most voters do not want independence.

Just as an aside, how long does the sovereign will of the Scottish people last for? It's surely got to be longer than a weekend?

 

[highlandsflyer]

are to expect these 'wilful' youth to turn into Tories as soon as they have jobs, mortgages and kids?

No, but they will become more risk averse. It's well documented.

Most of the working age people in Scotland favour independence, regardless of our responsibilities.

Fact.

That's not fact. Here are facts:-

1. Scotland held a referendum last week.
2. Most voters do not want independence.

Just as an aside, how long does the sovereign will of the Scottish people last for? It's surely got to be longer than a weekend?

Which part of the following stats are you finding it hard to grasp?

 

[technodup]

Which part of the following stats are you finding it hard to grasp?

Jesus, I know you're smarting with the result but come on, you're not as daft as you're making out.

Those stats are from Ashcroft's poll. Poll. As in opinion poll. As in not fact. If polls were factual then the outcome would have been much closer than it was. People were telling pollsters they were voting yes when they weren't before the vote and might well have afterwards as well. I don't know why but given the difference in the polls and the result they clearly were.

The only fact that matters is that most people who voted didn't want independence. Any reasoning as to why is conjecture. Any age related breakdown is also conjecture.

Serious question (seeing as you won't answer my other one): rather than hunker down and plot the next step to the independence the people don't want, why don't the 45 work with other interested parties to make the best of what we have? That way we might not end up with a lost decade (your timescale) where businesses won't want to invest in a Scotland in which they have no confidence in the future. Markets and business like stability.

If we have significant minorities agitating for another vote/alternative split for years it's going to fvck us far worse than the current status quo.

 

[old_coyote_pedaller]

What relevance does the "strong Irish/Catholic connections and populations" have to how people voted?

I don't know, that's what I'd like to find out.

The song in your YouTube link "We are the Billy Boys", who precisely were the Billy Boys and why were they "up to their knees in Fenian blood"? Could that be why it is banned?

Are you deliberately missing my points every time?

Have you any reply to this?
http://www.heraldscotland.com/politics/ ... 1411314286
I could copy and paste the article if necessary.

No need, the first few lines mention Nazi salutes so I doubt the rest is any more accurate.

That the attacks in George Square were organised on line by the Vanguard Bears (one of the more looney tunes Rangers(IL) supporters groups) and other right wing extremists, any answer?

There were no 'attacks', there was a bunch of steamers shouting and the occasional scuffle ffs.

What would you like to find out? That there actually is a Timmy conspiracy? Or maybe "Any reasoning as to why is conjecture." Your words.

So you don't think that a song that glorifies a Protestant razor gang that murdered Catholics and were "up to their knees in Fenian blood" as offensive and inflammatory so should be banned?

You are just not going to read the article are you? Just keep putting your fingers in your ears and keep your eyes covered so you don't upset yourself.

No denial that the Vanguard Bears were involved or that several people have been arrested and remanded in custody for what occurred on Friday evening and on into the middle of the night? Naw, it jist didnae happen.

 

[technodup]

What would you like to find out? That there actually is a Timmy conspiracy? Or maybe "Any reasoning as to why is conjecture." Your words.

Timmy as you put it can conspire all he likes, if he did he failed miserably. Was it coincidence that Glasgow, N Lanarkshire and W Dunbartonshire voted Yes and the Western Isles voted No? Religion related? I don't know. As you say it's conjecture, I would like to know because I suspect it was a factor. My main thought though was why the BBC never mentioned it, they mentioned every other metric which may have played a part in the results.

So you don't think that a song that glorifies a Protestant razor gang that murdered Catholics and were "up to their knees in Fenian blood" as offensive and inflammatory so should be banned?

Salmond/SNP banned it, and we all know why. My point was there are many who would like it unbanned, those tens of thousands in the video didn't accept it and disappear and they're the same people who really quite like the union and so this was an opportunity to get it right up Salmond. And they took it.

No denial that the Vanguard Bears were involved or that several people have been arrested and remanded in custody for what occurred on Friday evening and on into the middle of the night? Naw, it jist didnae happen.

We all saw the pics/vids, I don't deny anything happened. I don't know or care who orchestrated it (got banned from FollowFollow years ago for a Michael Mols related post), my point was that it was much ado about nothing in the end.

I'm going to try to stay out of this now, it's not going anywhere. I got what I wanted. The people got what they wanted.

 

[kaiser]

Re:

And on that note I reckon this thread is done. Locked.