1939 Claud Butler "D.S.H. Championship Path #931600E

[Peachy!]

Re: Re:

Without looking at frame numbers I would have guessed 1952/3. Brampton deadly headset is certainly in the 50s. Been wrong before about CB though.
Keith

Keith, check the earlier photos on the thread, showing the Chater Lea bottom bracket. Defiantly the pre-1950 numbering system, with the first number ‘9’ denoting 1949. Also with the post 1948 Olympic head badge that pretty much nails it.

 

[Peachy!]

Re: Re:

If it was mine, I would degrease the frame then use Evapo-Rust soaked cloth wrapped around the tubes (avoiding decals). If it is a warm day, then wrap the applied cloth with clingwrap to limit it drying.
Use cotton buds dampened with Evapo-Rust near delicate decals.

Trial on other similar conditioned items first to get experience with how long it will take.
Note to Jamiedyer: Please no contests where this project is eligible. It would be good to know more about this frame before it was worked on.

I received not dissimilar advice in a private message, Evapo-rust was ordered this morning.
I agree, before I do anything drastic I'm hoping this thread might attract some more background or history.

 

[Peachy!]

Re: American help required - stars & stripes Claud Butler

Wonderful find. Subscribing!

Always good to have you onboard Non-fixie.

 

[OldTel]

Re:

Hi,
I just thought I would explain my reasoning as it maybe useful, it is just an opinion.

Your Frame has a Seat lug - Bilaminate ?
Chater lea bottom brackets tend to have a serial number on the casting post war
Claud did do refurb's post war, I have one with both a pre war number ( 1938/48 ) or post ( it is a pre war model but ! ), but also with a standard 1953 set of numbers on the BB, it has had a simplex 51 shifter fitting added and repaint.

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters to much, either side of the war is nightmare for dating a frame.

Thanks

Terry

 

[Peachy!]

Re: Re:

Hi,
I just thought I would explain my reasoning as it maybe useful, it is just an opinion.

Your Frame has a Seat lug - Bilaminate ?
Chater lea bottom brackets tend to have a serial number on the casting post war
Claud did do refurb's post war, I have one with both a pre war number ( 1938/48 ) or post ( it is a pre war model but ! ), but also with a standard 1953 set of numbers on the BB, it has had a simplex 51 shifter fitting added and repaint.

I hope this doesn't muddy the waters to much, either side of the war is nightmare for dating a frame.

Thanks

Terry

Hello Terry,
Yes it all gets a bit murky doesnt it? I should quilfy my assertion thats its an "Olympic Path" that it is of course only my opinion and one thats based on my own reaserch and not documented proof.

What I'm really keen to find out more of is who might have commisioned it in the first place.....

 

[Peachy!]

Re: American help required - stars & stripes Claud Butler

Just to show my thinking behind the 1949 Olympic Path claim.
The bottom bracket has a 9 at the start of what seems to be the most likely sequence out of the three sets of numbers stamped there. Its commonly assumed that this would mean either 1929, 39 or 49.
The head has a metal Olympic rings badge, this was first introduced in 1949 after the previous year’s 1948 Olympics.
This is what leads me to believe the stamped “9” refers to 1949

Now for the details, the first picture from the 1949 catalogue shows the same improved Bi-laminated sleeves that this bike has (detail 3) the notes say “An improved version of the C.B. “Bi-laminated” head. Standard on models 1, 2 and 25. Note the C.B. “Olympic” head badge. it also has detail 6 "path" rear ends and the fork crown No 10 with the 7/8" round blades and seat cluster detail No 12 for Path models.

So now if we look at Path Models page we see an illustration and description of the Model No. 25. “Olympic Path” that matches this bike. If then look up models 1 & 2, these are “Avant Coureur” models with the pretty continental drop outs rather than the path racers rear facing slots.

 

[keithglos]

Re: American help required - stars & stripes Claud Butler

Your lugs are clearly castings, as is the Chater bottom bracket shell. Without taking the paint off it might be possible to check with a small magnet.
Most bi laminate track frames has 1.125 inch top tube.
Bur the CB catalogues around 1950 claim the use of steel bracket shells which are "stronger than castings".
Post war there were many shortages of components, The catalogue would be produced around October of the previous year, without any knowledge of what the frames would be built from, so variations are common.

Keith

 

[Peachy!]

Re: American help required - stars & stripes Claud Butler

Your lugs are clearly castings, as is the Chater bottom bracket shell. Without taking the paint off it might be possible to check with a small magnet.
Most bi laminate track frames has 1.125 inch top tube.
Bur the CB catalogues around 1950 claim the use of steel bracket shells which are "stronger than castings".
Post war there were many shortages of components, The catalogue would be produced around October of the previous year, without any knowledge of what the frames would be built from, so variations are common.

Keith

Hello Keith,
I've tried the magnet test you recommended (see photo) with one of my kid’s fridge magnets, it sticks well all over the lugs, would this suggest they are not cast? They don’t look or feel cast to me; the edges are too sharp.

As for the tube size, I measured them with my digital verniers, the top tube is exactly 1" the down & seat tubes are 1.125"

 

[Peachy!]

Re: American help required - stars & stripes Claud Butler

I've had a lead from across the pond;

Wow ! - could this be one of Jack Heid"s actual frames ? It is about the size that I believe Jack rode.

Or did Claud Butler do a number of "replicas" with the distinctive paint job that Heid had on his Claud Butler bike that he used around that time ?

Jackie Heid won a Bronze medal in the 1949 World Professional Track Championships, back when Track racing was still every bit as big of a deal as Road racing.
The UCI fat-cats that run the "sport" of bike racing (and doping cover-ups) started to push track racing aside around 40 years ago.
But when Heid won his Bronze medal, Track Racing was still in it's heyday. The talent-pool was bigger, and the level of competition was mighty high in those days. That only
underscores Jack Heid's talent and skills for him to bring home a medal in those days.

Tragically, Heid died in a house fire in 1987, just as America was sort of re-discovering the post-ww2 "dark ages" of U.S. Bike Racing

So I tend to think CB would capitalize on any win that big with a replica model.

That is quite a find either way, but it would be extra amazing if it was actually one of his bikes. Heid was a member of my old Bike Club (remember THOSE ?!),
the Century Road Club of America. Every year the club still holds a memorial race for him.

Regards,
Michael Fabian
San Francisco, CA USA

 

[Peachy!]

Re: American help required - stars & stripes Claud Butler

Here is some info on Jack, lifted from sports-reference.com
http://www.sports-reference.com/olympic ... eid-1.html

Jack Heid was a pioneer among American cyclists as the first track racer to compete in Europe after World War II, when he and Al Stiller remained in Europe after the 1948 Olympics. Heid competed in the 1948 World Championships in the sprint, but without success. In 1949 he placed second at the Grand Prix de Copenhagen for amateurs. Remaining an amateur throughout most of his European stay, he survived by selling smuggled bike parts, bike clothes, and watches on his various trips. His biggest victory in Europe came in a sprint at the Manchester Wheelers Meet in 1949. At the 1949 World Championships, Heid lost in the semi-finals in the sprint, but won the match race for the bronze medal, defeating Émile Lognay of France, becoming the first American to win a World Championships medal since 1912.
In early 1950, Heid settled in England, still competing as amateur but making money under the table, and doing better than many pros. In England he often trained with Reg Harris and Sid Patterson. After turning professional in mid-1950, he was considered a possible winner of the 1950 World Championships in the sprint. There he defeated world champions Jef Scherens and Jacques Bellenger, but lost out to Arie van Vliet , and finished only eighth. Heid returned to the US in March 1951, and took a job as a maintenance worker. He later returned to cycling a bit in 1957, riding in several six-day races in the United States. He and his wife lived in Rockaway, New Jersey, but owned a chalet in the Poconos, in Bushkill, Pennsylvania, and he died there in a fire in the chalet in 1987.