Bikes w geometry ahead of their time (pre-suspension)?

Its a question that's been rattling around in my head. Its mainly related to the phenomenom of 'modern' mtbs going back to earlier frame geometry in some respects, particularly in regards to slacker angles, longer wheelbases, and shorter stems. Back in the early 80s head tubes were 69 degrees, seat tubes were slack too. Then in the 90s everything got really upright and uptight and twitchy, wheelbases tightened up, chainstays shortened. These bikes were designed for racing, fast and groomed terrain (eg fire roads) for the most part. Not as much fun for the trail riding enthusiast who liked riding challenging terrain. I consider most 90s frames closer to road bikes than root and rock busting mountain bikes (okay that's a bit of a stretch but you get my point).

So after mountain bikes 'evolved' in the late 80s/early 90s, which builders were bucking the trends and making frames that really worked as off-road machines? I'm thinking a combo of slacker angles, sloped (and long) top tube, stretched out wheelbase, and pre-suspension.

Yeti and Rocky Mtn. come to mind. What others?

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Brodie for sloping top tube
Off Road Toad

Re: Which vintage mtbs were ahead of their time?

Kona ?

Re: Which vintage mtbs were ahead of their time?

Your 1998 Manitou was ahead of its time due to the extra wide rear hub that made the first true zero-dish rear wheel! That's a proper strong rear wheel. It's a shame that it didn't catch on as an industry standard... fast forward, now the Cannondale product developers are talking about asymmetric chainstays and moving the drive-train outboard in order to make a: (surprise!, drumroll...) zero-dish rear wheel! All the marketing faff about how revolutionary that is... ahemm Manitou did it decades ago!
Another one that comes to mind: AMP full suspension bikes. Compared to all the other high pivot point and URT crap of the early 90's, their suspension setup is very similar to a modern 4-link suspension (OK, Horst Leitner pretty much invented the modern 4-link suspension)

Re: Which vintage mtbs were ahead of their time?

Pace are the obvious candidates. Not necessarily because of the geometry. A friend of mine had a Pace and while he wasn't that good - money was basically no object. The first suspension I ever saw, for example. was a RC-35. The first non-round tubing I saw was on his Pace frame. From memory, the chainset and stem were different to normal ones of the time too. His Pace also had hydraulic Magura brakes. His was also the first mountainbike I saw with wheels of less than 32 spokes. Split the rear rim going over a tree root first time out. Blimey we laughed about that.

But all of this in the early 90s.

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alpinestars EOS frames.
Short wheelbase,
Oversize headset, stem & bars,

Re: Which vintage mtbs were ahead of their time?

Cunningham...U.S.A

ROBERTS...UK.

Bontrager....,Im thinking frames, Wheels, Suspension, V-Brakes.......ETC ETC ETC...

Re: Re:

roc6839":1gachc6v said:

Brodie for sloping top tube
Off Road Toad

Click to expand...

Love me some Toad! My buddies Toad circa 1989:

Okay so the early Canadian frame builders had the sloping top tubes, but still had steep angles and short wheelbases. I guess any larger companies had to have the steeper angles because that's what the consumer demanded at the time. I suppose anyone thinking outside the box (and could get away with it) would have to be a smaller custom house.

Cunningham for sure.
Manitou, check (though usually steep angles).

I loved that early Yetis had parallel 71 degree angles! What other steel frame builders were bucking the trends and doing their own thing? I have to look in to Roberts, I confess ignorance...

Okay so I'm adding Boulder, WTB and Trimble to the potential list.

So if a frame builder could see in to the future (assuming they could only use 26" wheels and other existing components) what would the ideal frame geometry be for let's say a 19" frame (my apologies for non-metric measures)? 69 deg head, 71 deg seat, 24" top tube, 16.9" chainstays, sloping top tube, 45" wheelbase? Were the early 80s builders only off by a longer and sloping top tube???