Pecking Order Back in the Day

[Ralph_the_Rohan]

While attending the Southend on Sea 'Festival of Wheels' event a few weeks ago I was stopped by an elderly Gentleman named Ken Plowman, who wanted a closer look at my 1970s Emperor Sport TT bike.

We had a long and very interesting chat about bikes back in the 1950s, 60s and 70s in general and his bike, a ‘Rivetts’ of Leytonstone in particular. An interesting account of Ken’s time with the Rivett can be read here…

http://www.classiclightweights.co.uk/ri ... t-rem.html

One of the more interesting topics that Ken bought up was, what he sees as the current thinking that ‘Bates’ and especially ‘Hetchins’ machines are seen as the top of the pile as far as desirability are concerned. The point that he was making was that back in the day both makes were not seen as anything too special. In all his years racing and touring he could only recall seeing one or two of either make in use.

Of course the above is only Ken’s personal opinion, but it got me wondering….

Back in the 1950s, 60s and 70s, was there a perceived hierarchy of bicycle frame manufacturers, or were all the bespoke builders considered roughly the same with buyers purchasing frames based on individual preferences such as price, location, etc?

Any views on the subject?

Steve.

 

[roadking]

Re:

I believe Hetchins are overrated (the best probably built by Jack Denny pre 1974). In the old days cyclists were very loyal to their local framebuilder/shop, although few builders did enjoy a wider reputation - e.g Roberts.

However if you lived on the south coast (of England) you would have invariably travelled up to Surrey and ordered your frame from Allin, Ken Bird, Higgins, Jensen, GB or Roberts as there were no builders* on the coast.

Today, for those who are"interested"in classic bicycles the tendency is to go for the better-known makers, ignoring some of the really superb builders like Bill Philbrook and Ron Cooper.

Rk.

*exception being John Spooner (built few frames) and Rotrax: if you travelled west to Southampton.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

Well, the common thing with Hetchins and Bates is that they both tend to have a very obvious trademark feature- the Bates fork bend and the Hetchins curly stays- which are both guaranteed to draw attention even from the sort of people who wouldn't know a 531 tube from a curtain rail, and thus shout: "This is a rare and collectible machine", which is perhaps important to a certain sort of owner.

My memory for this stuff doesn't go back before '76- and that was more as a spectator rather than a participant- but what I saw suggests that most were getting their new frames locally, or at least regionally. At that time the default 'serious' cyclist's uniform was a blue Tudor Sport training top, black tights, and cap, so, if on your travels you saw anyone in the distance togged up like that you had a good gander at their bike as they went past. Around North London area I might see a Holdsworth, Roy Thame, Condor, Ken Bird, Ken Ryall, Pat Hanlon, Witcomb, Shorter, Roberts, Dave Russell, Ron Cooper, E.G Bates, Pat Rohan(!), maybe the odd Mercian, but I don't think I ever saw a Quinn, Bob Jackson, Woodrup, Pennine, Ellis Briggs, Major Nichols, or anything else that had been built beyond Watford Gap, although I was aware of their existence, and if I was, I'm sure that any locals who were in a position to commission a new frameset were too..

 

[Cefnbikie]

I joined a cycling club in 1964 and noticed that members rode frames from a large variety of builders, and I cannot remember two frames from the same builder. Another nearby club had a number of members who owned Holdworths, but again various builders' frames could be seen on clubruns, or at time trials or road races.
In the mid-60s I rode a Carlton 'hack' bike with fixed-wheel to school, and this was replaced by a Hobbs fixed-wheel 'hack' bike. Everyday I parked it at the end of the woodwork hut, next to a Hetchins curly stay. The lad who owned it wasn't in a cycling club, and the Hetchins was just his daily transport to school. In good weather I occasionally rode my RO Harrison to school.

I can remember a sort of pecking order in that a 531 frame was a worthwhile quality frame to ride. Also, (and this my upset some) Raleigh bikes and frames were looked down upon distainfully in the club that I was in, even if the frame was built from 531. A frame from a bespoke builder was seen as superior, even if it was bought second, or third-hand.

(Edited for typo)

 

[Spokesmann]

Always been /always will be a Carlton/Sun man.

I'm aware of the of the supposed hierarchy that goes on in classic/retro circles but at the end of the day its what floats your boat,what interests YOU as a cyclist.

Personally I love seeing other great British marques and, if it must be said, Im looking out for a decent Jack Taylor myself...

Give me any of the above, any day.


On the whole though I've always considered Hetchins overrated, over the top...

 

[legrandefromage]

As a collector of all things leftfield, I've found better quality in the obscure and have actively avoided the obvious. So it is interesting to hear from people who were there rather than the hype of today. Its the same over in the MTB world. A lot of hype with the really nice trampled in the rush.

 

[torqueless]

Re:

I can remember a sort of pecking order in that a 531 frame was a worthwhile quality frame to ride. Also, (and this my upset some) Raleigh bikes and frames were looked down upon distainfully in the club that I was in, even if the frame was built from 531. A frame from a bespoke builder was seen as superior, even if it was bought second, or third-hand.

I don't believe there was a 'pecking order' as such. Beyond a certain quality point, it was accepted that framesets were functionally identical, whatever their source. If you lost the race, you wouldn't be apportioning blame to whoever joined your tubes together.

I do believe there were sort of 'levels of initiation'. There were people like me, who knew the names on the downtubes. There were people like roadking who knew the names behind the names on the downtubes- the artisans who actually joined the tubes together- and were likely on familiar terms with some of them.

All the 'big' producers- Raleigh/Carlton, Falcon, Dawes- had nice 531 machines too, but if you rode them there was always the suspicion that you were simply an ignorant moneybags who had just walked into your local Halfords on a whim and ordered the 'top of the range' model, just as a status symbol, without doing any research, or having any real interest..

 

[Little Al]

My recollections re the pecking order back in the day starting in 1948 when I first joined a club I lived in the Notts/Derby area So joined the now defunct Ilkeston Omega the reason for this that at that time the"war" raging "Twixt" the NCU & the BLRC & clubs were not allowed to be affiliated to both organizations. I was more interested in Road Racing than TT's & track, so joined a league club, the insults shouted at the different sides on passing on club runs was pretty intense. Cash was still pretty tight so younger guys like myself had more hand me down kit than new, the choice of frame set was pretty regional & different in the amount of seat post showing was the amount you could get your hand around not the 12 or so inches on today's frames. Also the cost of the frame was important so buying locally gave a bit extra for other bits rather than the post charge. I bought a Sheffield Langsett in 1952 & rode from Derby to Sheffield collected it: tied it on my back & rode back home to save the post charge; I don't think then that it was as much as now in that (insert favorite riders name) rides a brand XXXXX so i most have one. If the frame was straight the wheels true & inline& the other bits & bobs functioned correctly it was more important that a brand name that possibly cost over the odds.Remember the thebike was probably the only one & was used for riding to work, club runs, ride to weekend event, with sprint wheels fixed to front spindle/handle bars Take off lights, mudguards, & change wheels ,race, put bits back on & ride home Not to say the local lightweight shops didn't have "snotty" nose marks on the windows. Tom Crowther when he was manager at Mercian was always complaining about having to get the shop windows cleaned.

 

[bagpuss]

Re:

As said it depended on your location . Around here {Derby} Mercian always top of a must have list . Followed by Aende for tt . Other sort after
marques Eddison ,Langsett and Carlton,Raleigh .
Back in the early 70's i rode a second hand A S Gillot for a while {bit on the small side} followed by a Holdsworth pro a bit on the large side again s/h. Both came as f/f only .
After much sweating in fields{mid 70's }I bought my first Mercian and have had one almost ever since.

Never seen any one turn a Raleigh away . Always want a Carlton when I was a lad but could only afford one bike at the time.So it came much later. Had a Raleigh RRA 1982 model for a good while and rode 1000s of miles on it through to 80's and early 90's . Cracking bike at the price back then .

 

[keithglos]

Re:

Hello to Little Al, I thought I was the oldest here, looks like I'll be 84 soon.
Huge difference between 50s and 70s. I joined the BLRC in 1951, when it was just beginning to expand and a few NCU clubs were converting. My local Bristol BLRC clubs totalled 3, with about 40 active members between them.

In the early 50s timetrialists normally rode to an event early morning carrying their precious racing wheels, and perhaps rode with or met the rest of the club later. These new fangled (for them) variable gears started appearing mid 50s.

The road racers also normally rode to the event start, I once rode 30 miles to the start of a 100 mile road race, and in 56 and 57 rode the Bournemouth 3 day, riding down the day before 100 miles, and carrying everthing I used with me, race preparation included removing mudguards, changing tubulars, and in one case changed the frewheel block.

Some supported local shops, others preferred a frame that no one else in the area had. Bristol did not have a locak frame builder, Les Vince in Bath built a few, and in the early 50s Ray Clark in Weston was popular.

By the 1970s almost all competitors were motorised. Most went home after a time trial or road race.

Keith