Claud Butler-Holdsworth frame numbers 1959-1976

[CBguy]

Hi LMACE,

I have your frame as advertised on eBay, discussed on Flickr where I've been recording serial data. Each frame is in own album in order of where they appear in serial sequence. I think this is likely a European which was same frame as Challenge but had brake cable stops on top of TT as yours, however also had Mafac Criterium brakes which yours doesn't at least at present. Yours looks like a repaint and perhaps Brake spiggots removed at time or perhaps a "special" as chrome suggests. Check out Kilgariff catalogues and example #7500 album on Flickr which is a definite European.

Does frame have holes in head tube where a metal badge used to be? Would be nice to see a pic of serial on BB.

Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@N05/albums

Hope helps,
Doug

 

[LMACE]

Re:

Doug,

thanks for the insight, is the brake boses and cable guide position the only difference between the challenge and European? is there any geometry differences?

the bike has no holes in head tube, appears to be just decal.

attached is some further images of HT, and Bottom Bracket.

Your help is very much appreciated

cheers luke

 

[CBguy]

Off hand, don't know for sure, however I suspect angles were the same. One could scour Kilgariff catalogues to see if discussed. Certainly Prugnat 62s lugs and I believe tubing was the same - plain gauge Reynolds. Does it take a 26.4mm seat post?

Thanks for pics. As I suspected oiler is on underside of BB because topside occupied by cable guide. Otherwise at that vintage usually on top of BB.

 

[Peachy!]

Hello Luke, glad you like the threads and hopefully find them useful.
As CBguy says, my money is also on a European.
Current Olive drab was never a CB paint finish, I must admit I do find it strange that some re-finishing leans towards these duller colours, I guess in a bid to make them more vintage looking?
That number does look like it’s from 1960 but might just dip in to the end of ‘59. (the predictions naturally may fluctuate but will hopefully be firmed up as more data is added)
Also note that all the current decals are late 70’s - 80’s versions. I’ve got a feeling if you striped this back you will the traces of the old headbadge holes. Any chance you can see anything from the inside?

 

[LMACE]

Re:

CBguy, the seat post is 26.4mm based on my measurements.

PeachyPM
Having looked down the inside of the head tube, i can see the holes for the badge have been filled, good shout.

 

[ClaudButler61]

Re:

Would like to add my two CBs to the list i own a super coureur from April 1963 frame number 16335.
I also own a Velox S from April 1976 with frame number 71167.

 

[Peachy!]

Re: Re:

Would like to add my two CBs to the list i own a super coureur from April 1963 frame number 16335.
I also own a Velox S from April 1976 with frame number 71167.

Great, do you have any photos and can we ask how you got the month for these two? (Fingers crossed you’ve got the holy grail - a sales receipt)

 

[CBguy]

71167 is especially interesting as the present prediction only goes to 71000 in 1976 before switch to 6D system. Numbers and timing of this transition are a bit of a moving target.

Sounds like valuable evidence for an adjustment. Agree pics and any documentation would be helpful.

 

[ClaudButler61]

Hi again,
For the Super Coureur i divided the total for that years estimation and worked out that 16335 would be approx April ‘63’.

Enclosed is a photo confirming my Original Spanish Gold and black downtube
Velox S 24 inch frame bought myself direct from WF Holdsworth in Putney i remeber this clearly as young boy buying it as part of my Easter present.
This became my trusted school bike and once managed 130 miles per day on it cycling down to Arundal from London.Now purple and grey it is still giving good service as it now takes my teenage son to school.

 

[Peachy!]

Ok, so the Super Coureur we can put down as assumed approx early 1963 as our prediction data will continue to have the potential to fluctuate depending on firm dates, a photo of that would also be great to have here.
As for the Easter ‘76 purchase of the Velox that is good news, but I guess technically doesn’t rule out frame production late in 75.
Can you remember any more details of the purchase? Was it a special order or an off the shelf buy? Fantastic to have the memory of buying from the shop though and now passing it down to your son.