Age of Holdsworth frame
- Thread starter blackmaxr1
- Start date
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Nobody'll be needing a 'layback' seatpost on that one.. 
This holdsworth has a typical road racing position of the late 1940s. Saddle was low and back, bracket height with light wheels in not much over 10 inches.
It was "massed start" then, mention of road racing was almost forbidden, as racing on the public roads in UK was a serious offence, and cycling was legally "propelling a wheeled vehicle" . Time trialling was not legally racing, but was carried out "in an inconspicuos manner". I would suspect most Holdsworths from this era would be general purpose club bikes with track ends.
I would see this one with perhaps a 4 x 3/32 Osgear/Super Champion gear as likely, or Simplex T de F. Fixed wheel is totally wrong.
Keith
It was "massed start" then, mention of road racing was almost forbidden, as racing on the public roads in UK was a serious offence, and cycling was legally "propelling a wheeled vehicle" . Time trialling was not legally racing, but was carried out "in an inconspicuos manner". I would suspect most Holdsworths from this era would be general purpose club bikes with track ends.
I would see this one with perhaps a 4 x 3/32 Osgear/Super Champion gear as likely, or Simplex T de F. Fixed wheel is totally wrong.
Keith
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
So what was the default seat-tube angle for something like this in 1948, Keithglos, can you remember? This one looks like less than 70 degrees?
Doesn't bother me as a fixed, but then I wasn't around in 1948. I don't think the OP is aiming for total period correctness... I would have thought that back in the days when you had one bike, it wouldn't have been unusual to 'fix' it for the winter, or time-trials, even if it usually had gears? No harm done, anyway..
Doesn't bother me as a fixed, but then I wasn't around in 1948. I don't think the OP is aiming for total period correctness... I would have thought that back in the days when you had one bike, it wouldn't have been unusual to 'fix' it for the winter, or time-trials, even if it usually had gears? No harm done, anyway..
The late 1940s RTTC timetrialists would not normally be seen out with a geared bike, afraid they might be mistaken for a road racer BLRC rebel. Yes it was almost a religious chasm.
The classic club timetrialist general purpose bike of the time would have been 73 x 73, (possibly 73 x 71) track ends with mudguard eyes, and wheel clearance for 27 x 1 1/4, bottom bracket probably 11 inches. The racing wheels were normally carried on the front to the event.
This Holdsworth looks like 72 x 69, the seat angle being a bit shallow for the time. I would say this is a bit unusual, many lug sets were still 73 x 71, and road racers probably had a 72 head, if they had a choice. The long fork rake is correct for late 1940s.
Keith
The classic club timetrialist general purpose bike of the time would have been 73 x 73, (possibly 73 x 71) track ends with mudguard eyes, and wheel clearance for 27 x 1 1/4, bottom bracket probably 11 inches. The racing wheels were normally carried on the front to the event.
This Holdsworth looks like 72 x 69, the seat angle being a bit shallow for the time. I would say this is a bit unusual, many lug sets were still 73 x 71, and road racers probably had a 72 head, if they had a choice. The long fork rake is correct for late 1940s.
Keith
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
Ah yes, I was forgetting about the RTTC/BLRC thing...
Thanks for the comprehensive reply- you are a reservoir of bike-lore from days I never saw... Now I'm wondering if the shops/framebuilders also had to take sides, or was the bike shop neutral turf?
Thanks for the comprehensive reply- you are a reservoir of bike-lore from days I never saw...
Now I'm wondering if the shops/framebuilders also had to take sides, or was the bike shop neutral turf?As a retailer in the era, and a BLRC member, it did not seem to affect my trade, but my retailing was a little later, and there were some places which catered for one more than the other. But when not racing I often took photos, developed and printed them and gave them away on the Monday.
Keith
Keith
American Friend
Retro Guru
What do you reckon then is the fork rake on that lovely frame?
torqueless
Senior Retro Guru
OP?.. I would eyeball the fork-rake as being somewhere around three inches- it looks to be at least as much as the diameter of the hub flange. If you are used to 73 parallel frames, it's difficult to get your 'bearings' with these older geometries- at a casual glance, this looks like a smaller frame, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was 23 inches- the more laid back seat-tube angle lowers the standover height/head tube length...
American Friend
Retro Guru
Say the rake is 2 and 5/8", tyres 1 1/4", headtube 73°. That makes a very low trail, under 40mm. :shock:
That's the sort of front end Jan Heine has been harping on about with the French constructeur frames. But without any extra load at the front, like the front racks on those old French bikes and now the retro-inspired American designs, the handling of this bike is going to feel pretty weird compared with most road bikes from the past 40 or so years, which have much longer trail.
That's the sort of front end Jan Heine has been harping on about with the French constructeur frames. But without any extra load at the front, like the front racks on those old French bikes and now the retro-inspired American designs, the handling of this bike is going to feel pretty weird compared with most road bikes from the past 40 or so years, which have much longer trail.
