Holdsworth Frame Numbers

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Hi - yes I'll try and snap some of the lugwork later. I'd love to know a) if it is a Holdsworth and b) if not then if anyone might know what.

The frame number is under a bottom cable bracket so might be trickier, but it was a smallish capital A with a space (and slightly misaligned space if I recall, as if the letter and number were stamped with a different machine), and then the five digits together.

...for what it's worth, I love the bike/frame so whatever it happens to be doesn't matter to me, but if it turned out to be a bona fide Holdsworth then I might take it for a nice orange/blue respray to celebrate.

Looking forward to more pics. As per Dave's message; in conjunction with the serial and known sequences, the frame features are crucial to IF and where fits in known evolution of Holdsworthy design and identification of a Holdsworth/Claud clone model / special, "shop" builds and circa date.

ie: Font and positioning of a legible serial (identical serial on fork stem?), paint style + decals (if original), brake bridge details, presence or not of integral seat bolt and seat cluster design, location of any BB grease nipple, presence & type of cable guides/stops, +/- bottle bosses, +/-fender eyes, other braze-ons, type of dropouts, lug types and fork crown, frame geometry, kit (if original) and so on...

Agree with Dave (ignoring reported serial) pics so far suggest late 70's early 80's.

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Took a bit longer than planned sorry -- here is the lugwork around different bits...

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...and here is the serial number. It's under a bottom cable bracket I didn't want to fully remove so a few shots to get the full number (A 14270, A seems to be a little smaller?) by moving the bracket around.

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Just to note -- looking at this, the details look exactly the same (N.B. TO ME! But I know nothing about this topic haha):

viewtopic.php?p=953489#p953489

EDIT: AH-HA! Is this interesting/possible?

viewtopic.php?p=2426361#p2426361

Could it be a Tonard? Any ideas or history on that?

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That number is in the wrong position on the BB shell to be a Holdsworthy number. That's more like Bob Jackson position, except their numbers were usually the other way up.

Some marques (not Bob Jackson) used either the first two or last two digits of a frame number for the year. In that case your frame would be the hundred and forty second frame built in 1970. Possible makers who spring to mind- Mercian, or Witcomb. I'm not familiar with their stamping position. A bit of research, or the kindly donation of information from a Mercian or Witcomb owner, might help.

Those cutouts around the tube sockets of the BB shell are quite distinctive and might be a useful identifier.

(posted before visiting the link in your last post)

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Hi, the wrapover stay is very Holdsworth, but it was a common feature in the 60's/early 70's, the mudguard eyes point to a club/standard machine, and the suggestion of Witcomb could be good, as the serial number points to it being a 1970 example, worth investigating.
Thanks Terry

Thanks both, will investigate. Also, as you can see Bob Jackson have their sticker on it so that's an interesting other-addition in the quest... but I think that's just because they did some work on it more recently.

The A at the start is a bit odd. The frame looks too new to be a Holdsworth 5D number and from 1976 would be a 6D number placed higher up on the BB. Wrap over seat stays were gone by then. The BB lug shape is also odd for Holdsworth I think. Can't place this as a Holdsworth, is it possible a 1960's Claud Butler, that where the number sits in their system? Maybe others can comment comment on lug and stay combination.

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From looking at CB and Witcomb numbering systems it seems unlikely to be either. Does anyone know if anyone ever did serials with letters at the start? I know very little about this but have never seen one like that in all the stuff I've looked at.

I didn't get any further with information on Tonard but still wondering if that's possible? See my post five up from here.