Help! Name the frame - Pinarello imposter!

Hi guys,

I need some expert help I picked up what i thought was a Pinarello a few months back, after getting some inspiration on a holiday to Italy, when i picked it up it was in a bit of a sorry state, but i was really keen to get an Italian bike and wanted to learn abit more about them (my main ride is a Fuji Roubaix with Shimano so Italian frames and equipment were unknown to me). After a few days work cleaning and fixing some problems/replacing parts i got it back it a fit state, the problem is i'm almost sure its now not a Pinarello!

When i first got it i had no reason to doubt its provenance, the bike has Campagnolo Super Record rear mech and front dérailleur, Campagnolo cranks, Campagnolo seat post, and Campagnolo dropouts all round, the calipers are Shimano 600 as is the headset, but i'm aware you could get Pinarellos with Shimano 600 and Shimano offered the headset in Italian thread so this didn't particularly set alarm bells ringing.

However once i started trying to work out which Pinarello model it was i came across a few interesting findings, for a start there isn't one engraving or panto stating Pinarello anywhere on the bike, also the bottom bracket appears to be 68mm wide, not 70mm as per most Italian bikes, to add to that the BB has the following markings underneath;

Nearest to the chainside - 531 TR (Reynolds 531 touring perhaps?)
Opposite this is serial no. AP8510 and the name 'A. HAYES'

Anyone heard of A Hayes?? Or serial numbers beginning AP?

As i inspected the frame closer i found the mod. Gipemme marking with the bird on the rear brake bridge, this has made me 99% sure whatever i have is not a Pinarello as i understand Gipemme is French and haven't seen their frame parts on Italian bikes. The seatpost is also 27.2, which i believe isn't a size the Italians liked to use.

So the question is, what is it?! Despite its condition when i bought it, the bike seems largely original, both chainrings and jockey wheels are Campag and i assume original, the brakes also had the correct grey coloured Shimano pads (not fitted at the moment) which again may well be the originals. Paint wise i'm not fully convinced it's ever been redone, the paint job is of good quality and the condition is about what i'd expect given the condition of the other components and i can't see any sign of any other colours where the paint is chipped, there are no runs or flaky bits etc, and its also got two stickers stating 'Vincitrice -Vuelta D' Espana 81 Giro d'Italia 81', one between the shifters and one at the bottom of the seat tube, all stickers are underneath lacquer, i do wonder if it's had this scheme from day one.

I'm dating the bike around 1984, based on the patent 83 rear mech and the markings on the crank arms - a circle and a 4, which i believe denotes 1984, and the stickers on the frame. This would also tie in with the Shimano 600 tricolore calipers and the Mavic grey anodised wheels, the stem is Cinelli 1R stem and the shifters are Simplex incase it helps.

Heres some pics, excuse the poor quality, the bike is actually a really bright red but you'd never know! I look forward to hearing your thoughts! Obviously i've no intention of stripping it back to bare metal, so if i can't find out from the info we have then its most likely to be forever a mystery! I plan to fit a Cinelli saddle next along with Cinelli Giro d'Italia bars and proper brake levers!

Gipiemme is actually Italian, and 27.2mm was the standard SP diameter for italian road bikes.

Nonetheless, I have no idea what can it be.

very nice frame and looks to be well made but is identical to many steel frames of that era(heart shape cutouts in the lugs, shot in seat stays), did you purchase it here or in Italy? the lug cutouts on this eBay Pinarello frame differ << http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Italian ... 461009f3d8 >> the b/brkt frame number and stampings are your biggest clue so hopefully a forum member may come up with help.....have you checked to see if has Italian 1.36 threads this is not conclusive but may help establish provenance, good luck and hope all turns out well!

My gut feeling tells me this is actually a TT frame going by the fork rake & steep angles & looking at the seat stays shot in could be a Aende ??

Hi guys, many thanks for your comments!

Excel I bought the bike here in the UK, I know what you mean about the lugs etc being used by many many manufacturers, I've seen this design on all sorts of bikes including Italian, especially on the forks. I haven't checked the threads on the headset.

I'm also hoping to BB info will be the key, the last owner believed that A Hayes was actually a triathlete, but I can't see much mileage in this, would people ask for there name to be stamped on the BB? I've not come across this before, common sense would say it would be the framebuilders name, but again i'm not really sure if this is something builders do?

Nob interesting you should comment on the angles of the frame, the first thought that entered by head on initially seeing the bike was how 'short' it appeared in the wheelbase, especially given that it has a 58cm seat tube c to c and s 57.5 top tube, so not a particularly small frame. I'll do a bit of research on Aende!

Another small bit of info in case matters, when I got the bike it had a couple of American companies parts on it, which I believe to have been on the bike for some time, these are PAUL brake levers (still fitted), and what I thought was a reflector but turned out to be a light that goes in the spokes! Made by a company called Nite Ize. Of course there's many reasons and ways these parts could have made it on the bike but just struck be as a little strange.

the American components could be that there is also a framebuilder called Aaron Hayes of Courage Cycles in Portland OREGON USA......the plot thickens!!

Yes indeed I came across Aaron Hayes on a google search, but from what I can make out he's quite a young guy and hasn't been building frames for too long, so it didn't add up, even so I intended to contact him in case but haven't been able to find a website for him or any contact details

328isport":1lk6xhe6 said:

I'm also hoping to BB info will be the key, the last owner believed that A Hayes was actually a triathlete, but I can't see much mileage in this, would people ask for there name to be stamped on the BB? I've not come across this before, common sense would say it would be the framebuilders name, but again i'm not really sure if this is something builders do?

Click to expand...

I've seen it both ways, i have an ex Nick Craig CX frame, and his name is stamped into the shell, can't remember if there is a frame number too. I've seen this on a few custom builds.

I've also seen some frame shops who identify the builder on the frame (initials is all i've seen to date.)

Interesting thanks Matt.

I've looked in to the Simplex shifters which has helped add to the proposed early/mid 80's build date, I have the last version which seemed to be in production from 83 to 89.

It would seem the Simplex shifters matched to the Super Record drivetrain would have been quite the set up in its day.

Meant to chuck this earlier. I have seen many frames with owners names stamped on them. I have 3 myself. None of the names mine!
Just an early from of post coding and fairly common in my experience.