Mansion Tax, Oh Boy What A Gaff!
- Thread starter highlandsflyer
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Bats
Senior Retro Guru
Neil":vghkj0uj said:
We've had "booms and busts" where a couple years after the so-called bust house prices are right back up and still climbing. That's not a bust, that's a false flat.
If prices keep going up and up, is going to actually afford them then? A house is worth what people pay, if nobody pays, it's worthless.
You just admitted that at 20 years old you were so rich you bought a house. You bought a house, at 20. You could do that because you were minted, weather you admit it or not.
Now, as a 20 something who most definately couldn't dream of buying a house (or even a computer newer than 9 years old), I think you've got a right bloody cheek to accuse us all of considering not having an iPhone as the breadline. Quite frankly, you've absolutely no idea and you've let your head get filled with rubbish. The 20 something of today is living at home with his mum because even with a job there'd be no way to afford somewhere to rent out.
What you don't get is that we're actual human beings with concern over stuff like "can I afford driving lessons and pay mum housekeeping when I'm on a zero-hour?" Actually buying a car would never happen, but the licence might help us get certain types of jobs. We're not middle class strawmen with trust funds.
I don't know, as a 20 something you were minted enough for a house, as you've said. Perhaps you imagine we're all spoiled like you and your friends were. But here on planet earth things are different.
Bats
Senior Retro Guru
drcarlos":6unuzvxw said:
Nowhere did I say there wasn't anywhere in the UK that sells clothes and food, or any of the rest of it. As I've flew on a plane and we both have clothes on our bodies and fridges in the kitchen, that's a ridiculous way to read what I wrote.
However what I am trying to draw attention to is that finance, and mortgages in particular, are the biggest thing we've got going on right now. Pull "The City" out of the UK and we're an economy right up there with such shining stars as... Romania. Well done everyone.
It's not a crazy conspiracy theory to say that our economic prosperity is tied to precariously juggling money about with a focus on mortgages. Unless you've forgotten, this was literally what caused the recession.
Supply and demand would knacker everyone's "Investments" in the existing housing market. Ignoring for a moment the economic side, just think about all those TV presenters. Daytime TV is full of programs about how you can buy a hovel, paint the bathroom white, and rent it out for a fortune to some poor sod who can't afford a mortgage downpayment. What kind of monster would want to put the cast and crew of homes under the hammer out of work? You'll be endangering bargain hunt next.
Semantics, shemantics - there's rarely any true empiricism in being speculative.Bats":3qp3hq7q said:
Inflation affects most things, and is only removed where unsustainable.Bats":3qp3hq7q said:
In general, peoples' wages are rising, as are expectations, as are the prices of plenty of consumer goods. It's only a big problem with house prices, if they totally outstrip rises in wages, and become generally unobtainable, such that demand is reduced at all areas, as opposed to purely first time buyers.
I was nothing like minted.Bats":3qp3hq7q said:
I made sacrifices in other areas, and I simply had a decent, solid - but not outstanding income. I didn't have parents who threw money at me, or bailed me out, nor did I have much, if anything other than short-term savings I'd scrimped for to be in a position to buy a house.
I can very much assure you, I was not loaded. I chose not to go to uni, and I worked part time whilst at 6th form. Nobody gifted me anything. Whatever I got, I earned. I didn't moan that times were tight, I didn't go around my parents and moan at them, so they'd bung me some money, I stood on my own two feet.
I didn't buy a decent mountain bike until 91, because that was the first time I could afford to buy one. And I didn't have a car then (not until some years later). And even when I'd bought it (the mountain bike), I didn't have money to lavish on upgrades, or spare wheels, boutique parts. As good as it got for me, then, was: a pair of road tyres to use for on-road use, some bar ends, and most importantly, tools bought as and when, so I could maintain it.
Eh?Bats":3qp3hq7q said:
"bloody cheek"? Who's this "us" you presume to speak for? Did they vote you as their representative, or something?
What I'm saying, is that young people today, have different expectations. I look around at families I know with kids that are late teens / college age, I'm often staggered at how many have these expectations that they should just be entitled to a car, a fancy phone, going out all the time, and as soon as they'd like to spread their wings, a place of their own.
I don't hear any talk about what they're prepared to give up or sarcifice to do that. Yes, I did it at a relatively young age, but it was quite a simple, no-frills life, with rare (and I mean rare) luxuries.
When I was that age, I didn't have a car. I was 26 when I bought one and learnt to drive.Bats":3qp3hq7q said:
Before that point, I used the bus, Shank's pony, or as good old Norman said - I got on my bike. As to my job, I prevailed because I chose something I could be good at, achieved, and made sure I made that pay for me. I didn't moan when I got my first technical job and was told - "Right, get yourself up to speed, quick / smart, and let's see what you can do..." - that wasn't being sent on courses or having people furnish me with skills knowledge, that was being pointed at the library, "...and let's hear no excuses..."
What utter rubbish - I was brought up in the 70s, we had nothing.Bats":3qp3hq7q said:
My family were firmly working class, as was and am I. Whatever I got, I achieved on my own - nobody gifted me anything, fate didn't smile favourably. I applied myself, didn't make any excuses, got on with it, and went without on plenty of things that others weren't prepared to.
And for some - even now, that's not sacrifices that people are prepared to make, or believe are worthwhile in comparison to the alternative. Well that's OK - I'm not moaning about all the times I missed out on being able to live it up, booze all the time, buy what I like, or go on plenty of abroad holidays in my early 20s and lean periods.
I deferred all of that, and did it when I could afford, after I'd got somewhere to live. THAT'S the difference. I made choices, and I went without other things, that plenty of people wouldn't be prepared to.
Bats
Senior Retro Guru
Neil":2zzx1sfv said:
No, it's not a bust. Prices went down enough to upset the economy, then shot back up and kept climbing.
Neil":2zzx1sfv said:
It's not inflation that I'm on about. It's not inflation that is the problem. Adjusted for inflation, houses are worth more and more. That's the point of an investment.
Actually a hell of a lot of people's wages are "rising" slower than inflation. This is in real terms a pay cut. In real terms, consumer goods have been getting cheaper for decades. You seem to have a problem with the idea of sums being adjusted for inflation.
The fact you don't see a Big Problem in reduced demand (read: feasibility) from first time buyers says a lot. Maybe you ought to think about that, what with non-first time buyers tending to die of old age, and potential first time buyers being born every day.
You say that "nobody gifted you anything" but you were gifted everything. You got to grow up in an era where you could get a steady wage around the age of 16, that careers where you didn't need a degree weren't monstrously unlikely to stumble into, and where house prices were low enough that you could save up for four years around your teens and score a mortgage.
The first and second are vanishingly rare for a modern 16-24 year old, and it's a hundred grand for a two up two down these days. Compared to today you were spoiled.
This isn't a criticism, I am happy for you. But what you suppose was difficult but doable for you then is a pipe dream today.
I've got more right than you do. On account of being one and you're not. Daring to speak about a group you're not in, but denying the same to someone who is: Extremely bloody cheeky indeed.
You know when I was a teen all we were ever told is that we'd get good GCSEs, we'd pass our driving tests, we'd go to uni, and we'd get a career. That was the expectation we were told to have. My mum is in schools, it's still the expectation the kids there are taught.
So we leave school, none of that is possible, and everything costs a fortune. Pardon us if we cling to the dream even as we sit in our bedrooms waiting to hear if the zero-hour job we've got needs us this week.
Give up or sacrifice? We've got sod all. Say we cash in the laptop, alright, we got £50 from the second hand shop. And when it's spent we've nothing.
Christ, I'd love a job where they'll hire a 16-20 something with no experience to do skilled work for decent money. Doesn't happen nowadays, which is the point I'm trying to get across: You had it good, because these things could happen for you.
So you're happy to ignore that there was a better job market , and the houses were more affordable for people in your position back then, and sit safe in the knowledge that "kids these days, mutter mutter, iPhones".
Alright then. I'm sure you'd be up in arms to learn I'm a jobless 20-something, with no wardrobe, but typing this on one of those trendy Apple laptops that you'd assume is worth a fortune.
Never mind that it's 9 years old and dog slow, cost £100 (including replacement battery), and it was a gift, clearly I'm just spoiled and not willing to make sacrifices. :roll:
highlandsflyer
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Dr Carlos, nail hit on head completely. Just about every town I know of has some unsightly run down industrial area long abandoned by the light engineering and small scale businesses that once lived there. Many of these firms have not gone bust, but have moved to newer premises on extra urban developments.
Why oh why are green belt sites and such, supposedly excluded from development, continually being absorbed into the plans for housing estates for 'compelling' reasons?
Ironically enough if you want to house a lot of the younger, smaller family units then these old near city centre industrial areas are ideal. You can build fairly small, yet well planned developments with little need for parking or new infrastructure.
There are schemes whereby people get assistance to purchase land and build their own homes. That is a great way forward for families on lower incomes or such, giving an opportunity to get involved in solving your own problems. Also gives motivation to maintain your property and surrounds that some might not feel without such involvement.
As for mansion tax, how about slapping a huge tax on foreign buyers?
Surely that would bring in a huge amount of money, and I really don't see it putting any of them off.
Dr Carlos, nail hit on head completely. Just about every town I know of has some unsightly run down industrial area long abandoned by the light engineering and small scale businesses that once lived there. Many of these firms have not gone bust, but have moved to newer premises on extra urban developments.
Why oh why are green belt sites and such, supposedly excluded from development, continually being absorbed into the plans for housing estates for 'compelling' reasons?
Ironically enough if you want to house a lot of the younger, smaller family units then these old near city centre industrial areas are ideal. You can build fairly small, yet well planned developments with little need for parking or new infrastructure.
There are schemes whereby people get assistance to purchase land and build their own homes. That is a great way forward for families on lower incomes or such, giving an opportunity to get involved in solving your own problems. Also gives motivation to maintain your property and surrounds that some might not feel without such involvement.
As for mansion tax, how about slapping a huge tax on foreign buyers?
Surely that would bring in a huge amount of money, and I really don't see it putting any of them off.
Bats
Senior Retro Guru
Re: Re:
Problem is nobody with the power to do so wants mass house building projects... If you make housing affordable, then you've... made it affordable. That's the worst thing you can do when you're getting rich off them being unaffordable.
So I don't suppose we'll get what we need until we get rid of this bunch of gits in charge... i.e never. :/
Huge tax on foreign buyers sounds alright if they're buying multiple properties. I'd want to filter out anyone treating our housing market like a roulette wheel.
Problem is nobody with the power to do so wants mass house building projects... If you make housing affordable, then you've... made it affordable. That's the worst thing you can do when you're getting rich off them being unaffordable.
So I don't suppose we'll get what we need until we get rid of this bunch of gits in charge... i.e never. :/
Huge tax on foreign buyers sounds alright if they're buying multiple properties. I'd want to filter out anyone treating our housing market like a roulette wheel.
They didn't "shot back up" - I was (due to the popularity of interest only / endownment mortgages) in negative equity for some years. They were high in 91, and perhaps for a brief period afterwards, then crashed for quite some time.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
For me, personally - apart from the type of mortgage I had at the time - wasn't any real inconvenience, I'd not got on the property ladder as a speculative investment, per se.
As you said in a previous post - they're only worth what somebody is prepared to pay for them. Otherwise, it's purely speculative.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
Not at all.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
Sometimes wages may not always rise with inflation - sometimes they've already risen in other times greater than inflation.
I don't have any problem with things being adjusted in terms of inflation, per se.
Plenty of consumer goods have got cheaper - because they were either inflated in price originally, or costs were higher at the outset, or simply because greater economies of scale, or exploitation of cheaper manufacturing.
Just because in other times, the first time buyer market was perhaps more accessible, or people made greater sacrifices, or a perfect storm of the world conspiring against first-time-buyers, it's not so much as I don't see a problem with it, I just don't see it as quite the problem that those with a sense of entitlement seem to.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
I couldn't afford a car when I bought a house. Nor to go to the boozer once a week. Nor to go on holiday.
We all make compromises. If getting on the property ladder had been beyond my means, I wouldn't have scweamed and scweamed that it wasn't fair, I would have had to wait longer - as I did before buying a car, or considered it not worth the sacrifice.
I got a part-time, menial job, seasonally, from the age of 16 - yes. I suspect such lowly jobs are still out there, and not all swallowed up by immigrants.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
That wasn't a steady wage, it as crap, seasonal rates, not year 'round.
I didn't save for four years. Probably about 4 or 5 months, enough, with a truly meagre amount of savings I had in the bank, to get the minimum deposit, and just about cover all the setup costs.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
What? Seasonal crap work, for crap money?Bats":xwbmm6do said:
At that point, I was working for a Civil service department, in computing (which in itself was a lifestyle choice, I opted - for the position, mind - to work shifts, because it paid more, which was the choice for entry level into computing at that time, in the organisation I was then working for).
That, in itself, was no trivial thing to my life - shift patterns took quite some acclimatising to.
Depends on where you choose to live.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
100k is not the base price to get on the housing ladder. It may be in some areas, it may be a pipe-dream in others.
I couldn't have done that, and afforded to run a car, go out boozing, or go on holidays, or the odd cheeky music festival. Choices. We all make 'em.
Who or what spoiled me? Simply the time or era?Bats":xwbmm6do said:
Nobody put anything on a plate for me, I worked, innovated, pushed and didn't sit back on my hands to improve my lot at work, and get better remuneration.
I have the odd friend from the 6th form period of my life, that's gone on to be considerably more successful (probably the most successful person out of the friends I've had). And do you know what? Nobody gifted him that either. Not a rich family, or even well-off. He was bright, applied himself, knew from late teens what he wanted to do, and went out and got it.
Now he's very senior in an international market - personally, I'm very happy for him. He aspired, worked hard, focused from a relatively early age and achieved. Nobody handed anything on a plate for him. Sure, maybe he had some degree of luck - maybe the time was just right for him to do what he did - but sure as shit, nobody made it for him, other than him.
Some people I know would resent that. You'd be able to detect it from the manner in which they speak about him. Call it luck.
But he had a plan, and he stuck to it. To me, it always seemed a bit dry and uninteresting, but it's certainly worked out for him.
That's not an absolute.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
I'll accept, in the current era, it may be harder. But all the same, people make choices all the time. Fancy phones, clothes and shoes of a certain brand, cars - when perhaps they can't really afford it, if we're honest, holidays, money pissed down the drain on socialising.
I've no problem with people doing whatever they want with the money they've got - but what does irk, is the implied sense of entitlement, and the apparent abhorrence that sacrifices and going without some things will have to be done.
And yes, I get it, for first-time-buyers, it's a more expensive proposition. But then there's a lot more money wasted on shit, that didn't happen anything like as much in the past, and still expect to be able to do expensive things.
As is telling me I was minted, that I had it easy.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
Physician: heal thyself.
When I was at school, the sorts of things I was taught, was not to feck-up my exams, and if I worked hard, showed some spark, maybe I'd be able to earn a decent living.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
Nobody made any promises about driving tests, uni, or career. Those were things you had to go out and earn.
And how much did the laptop, iPhone and all these other acoutrements cost in the first place.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
As I said, it's not the problem with having such things, if people can truly afford them - it's the sense of expectation that people should be able to have them, regardless of means.
I grew up in the 70s. We had fvck all. And I mean fvck all. Yes, perhaps there was a little bit more prosperity in the 80s, but by that point we were grateful, not expectant.
When I got to about 16 or 17 I didn't expect to learn to drive or have a car - I couldn't afford, and by that point, I should no longer be being a financial burden on my parents, if I've got a job. And besides, they were in no financial position to start funding such a thing for me. Same for my older brother.
I learnt my skill - nobody did that for me, nobody sat me down and handed over the knowledge.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
By the time I got sent on the courses, I'd already been doing the job for ages, and it was just a completeness thing.
I started in a crap, mundane, clerical job. Showed initiative, and applied for better / more financially rewarding, and more interesting (to me) work.
I think the job market is changing - I'm far from convinced that across the board, it's a hopeless case.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
The 80s saw quite a lot of unemployment, and hopelessness in the job market you know.
All I'm saying, is that I chose to get on the property ladder. I meant I went without other things that plenty of people my own age could do, until I'd got myself to a point in life where I returned to having some disposable income again.
What I didn't expect, was to be able to spend money and have what everybody else had, AS WELL AS being able to buy a house.
I'm not making any assumptions on what your invdividual choice of laptop is worth, or whether you're employed or otherwise.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
I'm merely pointing out, that in todays world, what seems to have been taken as essential, is really nothing of the sort, and yes, it probably is harder to get on the property ladder. Some still manage it, though.
My issue with what you wrote about what I did, was this assumption that I was "minted" that it all just landed on a plate for me - the reality is, I worked hard, but more than that, achieved and parlayed that into better positions, and went without what other people wouldn't have, in order to buy a house.
That's just as much the trite cliche as the one you applied to the circumstances I had when I was 20.Bats":xwbmm6do said:
After all, that was just luck and good fortune, wasn't it...
The reality was, I'd learnt from my parents generation - priorities, going without, and making more long-term choices.
You don't need to tell me about austerity, I grew up in the 70s. I spent countless nights only being able to have any light in the house because we'd got some candles to light.
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Bats, obviously my definition of need is different to your definition if need.
Doesn't mean you are right though as it's just an opinion.
Doesn't make me right either. But in my opinion sharing a room for kids is not the end of the world. Or moving house after they have left isn't either if the house is needed by a family that could use it better. After all it is not their house if society is paying for it. (Do what they like if they are paying for it).
Either way the media mogals will tell the public what we should be thinking. That is the way.
Bats, obviously my definition of need is different to your definition if need.
Doesn't mean you are right though as it's just an opinion.
Doesn't make me right either. But in my opinion sharing a room for kids is not the end of the world. Or moving house after they have left isn't either if the house is needed by a family that could use it better. After all it is not their house if society is paying for it. (Do what they like if they are paying for it).
Either way the media mogals will tell the public what we should be thinking. That is the way.
Bats
Senior Retro Guru
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It's not just a matter of moving house, after the kids have left, so another family can use it.
Move to where? We've got a chronic shortage of affordable smaller places.
That's just one of the many factors that they ignore when you decide you don't "need" the house and should go somewhere else. "Go where?" "not our problem".
As for :
That's just absolutely cheeky. Do you think getting housing benefit means that you're just given a house for free? Because it's nothing like that at all.
Most people on housing benefit have jobs. They pay rent and council tax. Housing benefit exists, like all in work benefits (and even the tax personal allowance), because people's jobs are often to stingy to pay them enough to live on.
So to point at someone who's working every hour in the day and paying a fortune in rent and saying "you don't get a say in where you live, society is picking up your tab" is disgraceful. Have a good look at yourself.
FluffyChicken":3k0oe0xw said:
It's not just a matter of moving house, after the kids have left, so another family can use it.
Move to where? We've got a chronic shortage of affordable smaller places.
That's just one of the many factors that they ignore when you decide you don't "need" the house and should go somewhere else. "Go where?" "not our problem".
As for :
That's just absolutely cheeky. Do you think getting housing benefit means that you're just given a house for free? Because it's nothing like that at all.
Most people on housing benefit have jobs. They pay rent and council tax. Housing benefit exists, like all in work benefits (and even the tax personal allowance), because people's jobs are often to stingy to pay them enough to live on.
So to point at someone who's working every hour in the day and paying a fortune in rent and saying "you don't get a say in where you live, society is picking up your tab" is disgraceful. Have a good look at yourself.
