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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 3:49 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:03 pm
Posts: 19
As far as I can tell, Mercians don't have letters before the number - though the last two digits were the year, making this a 70...

dwscrimshaw suggests it could be a Falcon Holdsworth from 89/90 due to pump peg but I can't find any serial info for those, and everyone seems to agree it's from an earlier era than that.

Meanwhile, fact remains that the serial number is still most similar to this Roy Thame on ebay: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Roy-Thame-19 ... 4106432167 ... which since the seller claims is 70s, also means the number bears no relation to the year?! It's G 14455

The details on that frame and similarity to my A 14270 are the closest I've come to anything looking likely, along with the Thame/Holdsworth connection (though admittedly the decals could be a complete red herring!).

My only other remaining suspicion is CB but I can't find any reliable serial numbers for them... must exist somewhere surely?

[Meanwhile, has anyone ever thought of making a steel frame serial number database?!]


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 4:05 pm 
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
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Location: VCC Member 5558 East Riding of Yorkshire
sidolis wrote:

My only other remaining suspicion is CB but I can't find any reliable serial numbers for them... must exist somewhere surely?






viewtopic.php?f=12&t=392124 :facepalm: :roll: :D

I would bet against it being a Claud, numbers don't match and some of the details dont either.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:34 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:03 pm
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Haha - right you are! In that case, it remains that only Roy Thame has matching serials that I've found... and the Holdsworth decals MIGHT explain the linkage to Thame... but who or what was the "A" for....


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:37 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Aug 22, 2010 7:07 pm
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Location: Cotswolds
Sidolis: The "Roy Thame" offered for sale you referenced has a low end mass produced frame, certainly not what we would describe as hand made. The vendor claims it was his racing bike. Shops could not exist on the club/lightweight trade alone, so would supply this sort of frame to a schoolboy/teen as an entry level frame. After apparently owning it for 40 years he seems to know absolutely nothing about it or the value.

Keith


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:52 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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The wrap round seat stays of that Roy Thame looks like Raleigh / Carlton / Falcon offering.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 12:32 pm 
Retro Guru
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Quote:
As far as I can tell, Mercians don't have letters before the number

There is no guarantee that the 'A' is even part of the serial number- it is about half the height of the numbers. In frame numbers which include letters the letters are usually from the same set of punches as the numbers.

I believe frame builders doing alterations/repairs sometimes punch stuff into bracket shells for reasons known to themselves.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 12, 2020 3:08 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Mon Aug 26, 2019 5:03 pm
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Good points. I also noticed there's some apparently less-good details on the ebay frame to mine... not a welding expert but looking at some bits it looks a bit messy!


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 14, 2020 3:27 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:56 am
Posts: 38
Midlife wrote:
The wrap round seat stays of that Roy Thame looks like Raleigh / Carlton / Falcon offering.


Or Holdsworth.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:14 am 
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Interesting Falcon got raised above. I have been going through the 'odd' frames in the database and done a bit of work on these. I think the key thing here is the pump pip on the head tube. That is common on late 80's 531C frames such as my Roadace, so is the double bottle bosses, dropout wheel adjusting screws and sloping fork crown. That pip only seems to be around for a few years from what I have seen. The weight of a late 80’s 531C frame would lighter than the earlier 531 of a similar size. The lack of cable guides on this frame is unusual, I would expect this frame to be at the light end of the sacle.

Interestingly we have a bunch of frames with these pips in the Malboro/Falcon 'other' pile. I am now of the opinion that these are from the Falcon era. These frames often have the later simpler Reynolds decals that changed in 1989, but the 531 decals are often replace incorrectly favouring the older style. We also have a group of black Falcon/Holdsworth Pro's with numbers starting with B & C. Recently we have a frame starting with D and a CB starting with G. The CB Dalesman has a shop receipt from March 1997.

So accepting the general view that Marlboro/Falcon numbers are chaotic we do have some consistency in them with the use of a letter at the start. Falcon Made black Pro's in 91 and dark blue in 92 and I have often thought the B and C is used for these years for some frames. If we assume the Dalesman frame was actually made late 96 then, working back, letter A would be a Falcon Holdsworth/CB from 1990. The problem with this is that we have more black pros with letter C than B, but I still think there is 'some' relevance here.

The biggest remaining issue with this frame is the use of the wrap over stay. There is however an odd frame that is listed as an Italia with Misteral style lugs carrying a number that looks to be post Malboro take over with the same stay. The Maistral was listed for the last time in 1984 along with the CB Dalesman, Canyon and Holdsworth Triath-Elan for which we have examples with Marlboro 'H' style numbers. Interestingly we also have three frames starting with the letter H from 1984; H for Holdswoth take over stock? Did Falcon have a problem with the lettering once they got to G and stopped?

So to conclude this ramble/stab in the dark, I think there are two option that fit this being late 80's or 1990 with the right features for both. Roy Thame or Falcon Holdsworth. The fact that it is badge a Holdsworth would seem to conclude it for me.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 21, 2020 9:51 pm 
Onnnne Huuuunnnndrreeed and Eigggghhhhty

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 180
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Sidolis,

Interesting, your touring frame has similarities to Tourissmo and Touring Thame models in this post '76 Roy Thame Catalogue. Catalogue models have names identical to prior 1976 Putney shop "Holdsworth" branded models. Your frame appears to have very relaxed geometry as touring model - details in cat. pic aren't clear. Altho on other Thame models there are definite wrap around seat stays, fully sloping fork crown, Prugnat S lugs and absence of TT cable guides.
http://threespeedhub.com/wp-content/upl ... 70s-UK.pdf

I'd guess this nest one is a slightly earlier flyer but still at the time that shop was no longer badging Italia Tourers as "Holdsworth" but rather Thame and also retailing true factory Holdsworth models.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/bensondoc ... 478655909/

Also it seems to have been that "shop" builds often had idiosyncratic features as often did custom jobs and didn't stick religiously to a particular model features (example lug style) especially when compare to factory models.

As with Falcon unfortunate more evidence hasn't surfaced to shed some light on post 1976 Thame serials. Perhaps numbers really are all over the place as were builders.

Thame/Falcon?


Last edited by CBguy on Tue Jan 21, 2020 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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