Powder coating heat treated aluminum

fishyfool

Dirt Disciple
Not a great idea.
Why?
Aluminum that is heat treated is done so at a lower temperature than like steel or a steel alloy would be.
From as low as 275 to as high as 450 or so. Depends on the aluminum and the treatment process. Powdercoat cures under heat, 350f to 390 or so.
The real killer is the time involved. 1 to 2 hours cure time depending on the powder and use scenario. That effectively anneals your heat treated aluminum.
 
...and your source/experience for that assertion is? 🤔

OK :rolleyes: Deep breath, here goes:

6061 Frame material:
The annealing/solution HT process for 6061 to T0 requires holding for 35 minutes at 980F/530C. Quench in water or water/glycol keeping quench liquid at 100F/38C or lower. Powder coating (PC) temps are nowhere near this.
The correct post-weld artificial precipitation ageing cycle to get to T6 after solution+quench is 8 hours at 350F/177C. No natural precipitation ageing will occur.

Because it is a 6*** heat treatable alloy, 6061-T6 can indeed react to additional heat cycles, but any primary yield strength reduction only initiates at 200-250C depending on heating rate (See graph). For bike frames PC parameters range from maybe 30 mins @120C to 12 mins @ 200C (Not hours...where did you get that from, massive cast wheels and engine blocks?). So, ideally, 6061-T6 bike frames should be brought up to temp quickly, cycled at lower temp/longer time if possible, with low out-gassing powder formulations used to help reduce the need to extend dwell time at temperature.
In summary, assuming a 6061 frame has already been correctly post-weld artificially aged, the temps and times involved in a well designed PC process will have no effect on the material temper or the ageing process for better or worse.

Screenshot 2022-10-29 155305.jpg

7005 frame material:
To anneal 7005: 2 hours at 700F/371C, then ramp the temp down by 50F/28C per hour to 450F/230C (ie: 7 hours). Hold for two hours at 450F/230C, then air cool. So to get to T0 temper takes 11 hours at elevated temperatures, not 20 mins at PC temperatures.

With 7005-T6, immediately post-weld it will have locally lost approx 50% of tensile strength etc. in the HAZ. However, natural precipitation ageing quickly occurs post-weld to restore these mechanical properties (See Table 6 below). This can be induced artificially (8 hrs at 225F/107C + 16 hrs at 300F/149C), or will occur naturally with a more extended period at room temperature (see graph below). Any additional time (or heat, within reason) after the artificial or natural ageing cycle to T6, such as a PC cycle, has little to no additional effect since the graph is already flat. This precipitation ageing process only goes in one direction (at below 350C/660F, at least) and is inversely exponential...there is neither 'over-ageing' nor annealing at typical PC temperatures.

7005_natural_ageing.jpg

7005_ageing_graph.jpg


The only single note published by a material supplied or manufacturer relating to PC finishing aluminium bike frames that I have ever seen is a caution from Easton on their ultra-lightweight SC7000 scandium doped alloy tubing instructions. There was a stated low temp requirement...Max 325F/160C for 30 mins, which is well within normal PC capabilities.

I'm basing that on 20+ years experience of building and selling powder-coated lightweight welded aluminium tube products (bike frames, handcycles and sports wheelchairs mostly), data from the UK Aluminium Federation handbook, the ASM "Aluminum Handbook", ASM/Kaufmann "Properties of aluminum Alloys", many published academic metallurgy papers, and the fabrication/finishing requirements for bike tubing from Easton, Columbus and Dedacciai.

All the best,
 
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Case in point, I prepped some heat treated 6160 T6, aircraft parts. They were cured at 390 for 2 hours. This was an airframe restoration, inspected by the FAA. When they were told about the powdercoat process, they (wing parts) were condemned. Reason given was the heat process to cure powdercoat annealing the aluminum . Not disputing your info, but I trust the FAA.
 
Remember the Kastan Uni-Fork? Someone warned me (My former machine shop teacher) that it was an accident waiting to happen.
No, everyone else said they're great! I bought one. My machine shop teacher was right.
I won't powdercoat any of my aluminum parts and I can get it done for free.
 
Simply put, aerospace requirements are very, very different to bike frame manufacture.

I'm not questioning the exacting manufacturing requirements of the FAA/ICAO/ISO regarding the powder coating of airframe parts. They are understandably hyper cautious since the risk/consequence ratio is completely different to bike frames. I suspect the parts were rejected since they had been subject to a non-approved, un-logged thermal process carried out by an un-accredited practitioner. So they could possibly have been annealed, not that they had actually been annealed by the powder coating process.

Some of the aluminium alloys used in aerospace are highly susceptible, so any un-regulated heat processes are banned on all aluminium aerospace parts. That way, all aluminium parts can be shown to be unaffected. If any process carried out on the any part is not specifically approved, carried out by an accredited company, QC/QAed and logged, then the part is rightly rejected and scrapped.
My major concern would be that you, as someone presumably contracted to be working on those aerospace parts, wasn't given, didn't understand or didn't follow the FAA guidelines regarding the specified finishing requirement of those parts. 🤔

To the FAA, other controlling bodies and all aircraft manufacturers, the average local powder coating shop might as well be run by dust-covered illiterate monkeys. However, there are many coaters who do have sufficient knowledge, care and process control to follow instructions and not screw up bike frames and similar aluminium products.

In the same vein, aircraft manufacturing regs, for example, also have blanket bans on any steel brazing, require all materials to be linked to batch and mill certificates throughout their life, fastener holes to be reamed to tolerance not drilled, require every part to be serial numbered and traceable from billet to fitting, each tool used must be serial numbered, regularly calibrated and time logged, along with the worker who carried out the procedure etc.
None of that is required or expected, even under the published EN/ISO regs, for bike manufacture...Do you still follow those tighter FAA requirements when working on your bikes just in case, though, because that's what is done on airplanes?

While some manufacturers might like their paying customers to believe that their QC standards/tolerances/repeatability and practices are similar to aerospace, that isn't how real world conventional bike manufacture is required to, or actually, works in any material or at any price point.

You are, of course, free to avoid powder coating your own bikes for fear of annealing, but plenty of aluminium manufacturers of all sorts (and their product liability insurers) have no problem at all with the process or its results, for the tested, proven and repeatable reasons I outlined above.
Your sweeping opening statement that it is 'not a great idea' to powder coat aluminium bike frames is misleading at best, your explanatory 'case in point' is incomplete and irrelevant to the industry in question, while your numbers and annealing claims are either unsubstantiated and incorrect.

...and what does the Kastan Uni-Fork have to do with powder coating aluminium frames...it was a TIG welded cro-mo steel product, and usually chrome plated. :rolleyes:

@Chopper the ex Copper Carbon bike frames are a indeed completely different kettle of fish to metal frames, and end very badly if exposed to elevated temperatures, even just in hot cars, let alone 200C. The resin matrix generally softens, out-gasses, then chars or burns unless specifically formulated for high temps. Even then 160C is considered a 'high temperature' service environment, with stuff like F1 CFRP brake rotors being rare outliers.

All the best,
 
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Agree completely with Danson67, having just spent 14yrs doing experimental research on aerospace and other high tech alloys for a variety of projects at the University I was working for. From FSW to EBW and Laser welding in 3D metal printing. Heat treatment was a main part of my work and long term storage of some alloys had to be temperature controlled in the summer months to prevent increased natural ageing. I also worked on hot quench forming for the automotive industry in one of the later projects and another was cracking in a 7*** series alloy for aerospace, NDA agreement.
We also did some smaller projects for a few bicycle related companies. One was due to a lot of injury claims from a sudden failure, mostly dental claims. The majority of these were down to cheapskate heat treatment procedures or none at all. Frame failures were always in the HAZ .
I'm not a fan of PC on bike frames but only from an aesthetic point, it's too thick and ruins the look of steel frame lug work but on some MTB's not a problem, except for the weight conscious people.

All the equipment we used for aerospace work had to be certified on a regular basis by outside companies that were accredited to carry it out. Any results not fully tracked and traceable were dismissed in the regular meetings with industrial partners. So all heat treatment parts were fitted with thermocouples and the whole process data logger, including any quench process, whether it was in water or hot salt bath!
 
...and your source/experience for that assertion is? 🤔

6061 Frame material:
The annealing/solution HT process for 6061 to T0 requires holding for 35 minutes at 980F/530C. Quench in water or water/glycol keeping quench liquid at 100F/38C or lower. Powder coating (PC) temps are nowhere near this.
The correct post-weld artificial precipitation ageing cycle to get to T6 after solution+quench is 8 hours at 350F/177C. No natural precipitation ageing will occur.

Because it is a 6*** heat treatable alloy, 6061-T6 can indeed react to additional heat cycles, but any primary yield strength reduction only initiates at 200-250C depending on heating rate (See graph). For bike frames PC parameters range from maybe 30 mins @120C to 12 mins @ 200C (Not hours...where did you get that from, massive cast wheels and engine blocks?). So, ideally, 6061-T6 bike frames should be brought up to temp quickly, cycled at lower temp/longer time if possible, with low out-gassing powder formulations used to help reduce the need to extend dwell time at temperature.
In summary, assuming a 6061 frame has already been correctly post-weld artificially aged, the temps and times involved in a well designed PC process will have no effect on the material temper or the ageing process for better or worse.

View attachment 675339

7005 frame material:
To anneal 7005: 2 hours at 700F/371C, then ramp the temp down by 50F/28C per hour to 450F/230C (ie: 7 hours). Hold for two hours at 450F/230C, then air cool. So to get to T0 temper takes 11 hours at elevated temperatures, not 20 mins at PC temperatures.

With 7005-T6, immediately post-weld it will have locally lost approx 50% of tensile strength etc. in the HAZ. However, natural precipitation ageing quickly occurs post-weld to restore these mechanical properties (See Table 6 below). This can be controlled artificially (8 hrs at 225F/107C + 16 hrs at 300F/149C), or will occur naturally with an extended period at room temperature (see graph below). Any additional time (or heat, within reason) after the artificial or natural ageing cycle to T6, such as a PC cycle) has little to no additional effect. This precipitation ageing process only goes in one direction (at below 350C/660F, at least) and is inversely exponential...there is neither 'over-ageing' nor annealing at typical PC temperatures.

View attachment 675380

View attachment 675305


The only published note relating to PC finishing aluminium bike frames that I have ever seen is a caution from Easton on their ultra-lightweight SC7000 scandium doped alloy tubing instructions, where there was a stated low temp requirement...Max 325F/160C for 30 mins, which is well within normal PC bounds.

I'm basing that on 20+ years experience of building and selling powder-coated lightweight welded aluminium tube products (bike frames, handcycles and sports wheelchairs mostly), data from the UK Aluminium Federation handbook, the ASM "Aluminum Handbook", ASM/Kaufmann "Properties of aluminum Alloys", many published academic metallurgy papers, and the fabrication/finishing requirements for bike tubing from Easton, Columbus and Dedacciai.

All the best,
Was at the tip of my tongue, but you beat me to it.

Your knowledge about this sort of stuff never ceases to amaze me, but it makes me brain hurt. o_O
 
I've only skim read this and as ever Danson seems 100% sensible. Certainly right re traceability, and more than likely HT would need to be a NADCAP approved process, with appropriate furnace logs. That logging bit is oh so very important.
However, more back to the point of PC or not, the main reason "not" to for aero is NDT (non-destructive testing), or in context "part inspection".
PC can mask cracking, and make NDT difficult.
 
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