Forum for Anal-Retentive restorers?

[sq_root_of_2]

"MadCowKev
....fill the void left by the demise of the VRC – wasn’t that that the reason for the OPs original question?...

Maybe demise is too strong a word....but I personally visit it a lot less and enjoy it less than I used to. And yes it was the question I was asking.

Edit: Referring to not visiting VRC site as much. I like this site a lot.

 

[ededwards]

Some interesting points but all a bit 'Groundhog Day' without the sardonic genius of Bill Murray to leaven the mix.

I'm sure many could make the following points more articulately than me but nevertheless I will have a go.

It's great that there is a diversity of views and some good natured banter. What is less great, in my view, is becoming divisive with some views/bikes seen as being superior, especially if that superiority is self claimed! This is snobbery where people are perceived by the snob as inherently inferior to him/her for any variety of reasons that could include real or supposed intellect, wealth, education, ancestry, etc. Not really very nice, is it?

And where does snobbery lead, as surely as enjoying a small sweet sherry at Christmas leads to PET bottles of 12% cider before breakfast? Elitism. This is simply where certain, often self-appointed people think that their skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern and that their views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight. It can also mean that certain individuals assume special privilege and responsibility in the hope that this arrangement will benefit humanity or themselves.

Extending further, elitism can also denote situations in which a group of people claiming to possess high abilities or simply an in-group or cadre grant themselves extra privileges at the expense of others. This form of elitism may be described as discrimination.

Ok, so I've gone from "I like high end bikes" to neo fascism, which is a bit strong - perhaps comparison to X Men would have been a more resonant allegory? But anyone who has read 'Lord of the Flies' knows how this ends and I don't think that anyone should be Piggy here. And, to mash it up, I'm with Professor Xavier.

A long waffle but as before, knowledge is porridge, and possessing porridge gives no one the right to affect an air of superiority towards others, in fact it reflects poorly on the porridge possessor.

Wearily

Ed

 

[pete_mcc]

I'm not any richer than the next man but I am also not a prolific builder of bikes, I have 5 or 6 that I have saved for over the years, buying when I can afford or searching out the bargain part in the darkest bike shop. I put the leg work in, rather than so many who just rely on what eBay throws their way – ebay is not the best source of kit, networking and talking is.

The lazy man will bitch about ‘Elitest builds’ but will do nothing more than trawl eBay hoping that someone will drop a Merlin with M900 into their lap - it won’t happen on eBay but it will happen in shops, swaps, carboots, clubs and jumbles, you just got to get out from behind the screen.

Anyway, to me the word 'Elitest' is wrong I prefer 'Aspirational' as, much like when I was a kid, there are bikes that I aspire to buy and build and there always will be. But to do that takes time and money, as one great philosopher once said :
I'd rather own one Porsche than 50 Yugos
...so I bide my time and save up and because of this I will never hide the fact that I dislike most multiple cheap bike builds as a waste of money (although I understand the pleasure it may give to some).

If we look back to the early days of this site or of VRC there were no £50 heaps, there was no 200GS, no Chi Lee, no RST. It was Classic bikes, retro bikes and vintage bikes – not just old bikes. There were like-minded people who had a passion to only build the historic bikes of their youth and to relive a dream - everyone had grown up through the birth and boom of MTBs, knew the history and the characters that created it, we were the fringe weirdos stuck in a timewarp (you could also leave your back door unlocked and get change from a fiver for a night on the town..).

Because of this I can see why people drift off and form new groups, after all that is how VRC or Retrobike started themselves. But if you only love the history of a certain era, if you only love exquisitely rare bikes and the hundreds of hours that go into rebuilding them, if you only want to talk to like-minded people who came from the same scene and have the same shared passion as you, then maybe VRC or Retrobike are not the perfect places anymore.
Retrobike has grown amazingly and appeals to a far wider and broader audience and the builds and discussions have gotten broader and less focused accordingly. We are now happy to praise and celebrate all bikes for reaching their 10th birthday regardless, we praise all builds and critique few, we have less knowledge of the history but more focus on the added extras a site like Retrobike can offer: Ride groups, Road bikes, BMX and so on.

I’m still here almost as frequently as I was in the first few weeks of the site as there is always something of interest and probably always will be, but I do have to search elsewhere on the web to sate my deeper anal desires!

EDIT:

And before you mention Ed, that wasn't a response to your post, just posted at the same time...

 

[Tallpaul]

Maybe demise is too strong a word....but I personally visit it a lot less and enjoy it less than I used to. And yes it was the question I was asking.

I did a quick search and found one build of yours listed in Readers Bikes, do you have other builds that you don't wish to post in the current forum structure?

 

[ededwards]

And before you mention Ed, that wasn't a response to your post, just posted at the same time...

As if I would do that! Anyway, two perspectives on the same topic posted simultaneously says something although it may take me a few minutes to work out what.

....but I do have to search elsewhere on the web to sate my deeper anal desires!

:shock: :shock: Sorry, couldn't resist the childishness of taking that out of context.

 

[sq_root_of_2]

I did a quick search and found one build of yours listed in Readers Bikes, do you have other builds that you don't wish to post in the current forum structure?

I am always happy to share.

I am working on a 1990 Clockwork XT at the moment. When it is complete I will post it.

 

[ededwards]

Riding home in freezing rain has given me the clarity to respond to Pete's articulate post that I lacked earlier.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 'less is more' approach or being aspirational, indeed I have often thought myself of downsizing to fewer bikes but have never had the conviction to go through with it.

The problem lies however in feeling that liking higher end bikes somehow confers superiority (and you don't imply that in your post Pete and I didn't infer it either, it is a general point). We all get involved in retro for a whole variety of different reasons with none being better or worse than others. For some these reasons change (note: not evolve). That's all fine and makes for interesting and rich discussion but, again, doesn't make one way of doing things better than another, just different.

I would take issue with relying on eBay as lazy though. Not everyone has the patience, attention to detail, time or, increasingly, money for a slow burn build. Again, that doesn't make them inferior or somehow lacking (and sorry, but lazy is a pejorative word), they just have different values/priorities.

It's Christmas, let's all just love each other for a week or so and we can go back to fighting in January.

Ed 'Pipes of Peace' McCartney, thumbs aloft

 

[pete_mcc]

I would take issue with relying on eBay as lazy though. Not everyone has the patience, attention to detail, time or, increasingly, money for a slow burn build. Again, that doesn't make them inferior or somehow lacking (and sorry, but lazy is a pejorative word), they just have different values/priorities.

Maybe lazy is too much of a negative, but if people rely on the convenience of ebay then they must accept the vast increase in price due to competition and mustn't shout elitism because someone else has got the bargains.

To me a sign of a great build is the patience, attention to detail and time involved. Halfords can build a cheap bike quickly but that doesn't make it worthy of praise. There have been some amazing builds of cheaper bikes that are highly worthy of praise - who can forget that Bear Valley, but to dash up a cheap bike in days using spares box parts, slap it on the forum and complain when the piss is royally taken is not on.

Crap analogy alert
I have a crap physique because I spend no time in the gym - I wouldn't expect to have the piss taken just walking down the street but I would if I entered a body builders forum and posted up a pic of my body in the 'Readers pecs' section.

 

[utahdog2003]

...If we look back to the early days of this site or of VRC there were no £50 heaps, there was no 200GS, no Chi Lee, no RST. It was Classic bikes, retro bikes and vintage bikes – not just old bikes. There were like-minded people who had a passion to only build the historic bikes of their youth and to relive a dream - everyone had grown up through the birth and boom of MTBs, knew the history and the characters that created it, we were the fringe weirdos stuck in a timewarp (you could also leave your back door unlocked and get change from a fiver for a night on the town..).

Because of this I can see why people drift off and form new groups, after all that is how VRC or Retrobike started themselves. But if you only love the history of a certain era, if you only love exquisitely rare bikes and the hundreds of hours that go into rebuilding them, if you only want to talk to like-minded people who came from the same scene and have the same shared passion as you, then maybe VRC or Retrobike are not the perfect places anymore....

So what you're saying is that I'm ultimately doomed to have a winged crank arm as an avatar? Is there a test?

I agree with your logic, but I'm not sure I understand the acceptance of the demise of VRC (and what I'm sensing is the expected demise of Retrobike, at least as a dedicated retro forum)

There are public forums, through moderation, that have been able to maintain their original mission. They really are out there.

VRC would still be VRC if mods were able to control a certain weirdo in Seattle, and his need to post pictures of every Rockhopper he found at a yard sale. I don't think Retrobike needs to go down that road, and I'm not conviced that it will undeniably do just that. I'm just not sure that the membership board is the solution, instead I think effective moderation is.

I guess what I'm saying is. I feel like I'm being dragged toward IVMTB because all the good stuff is leaving the other forum options. I've got nothing against the new board, and if I have to do that then I guess that will play itself out at some point. When IVMTB avatars began popping up on VRC, I sort of took that as a little tongue in cheek jab at the new leadership over there, and actually got a little giggle out of it...a very clever little Rumpfy jab. But I have to say, when I saw MadCow bust out the flying crank arm, and now Scant, and probably soon to be more, then I got a little chill about where Retrobike could be heading...and I'm bothered by that. Wouldn't the prudent thing to do be to tell they guy with the Rock Hopper or the Fire Mountain, built up with Alivio or Exage or whatever, that he's in the wrong forum? It should be a moderator message and not a rude smack down by 100s of forum members (ala Seattle vs. VRC).

ededwards wrote about elitism, and I agree with a lot of what he says, but there's also something to be said for maintaining direction and message and purpose as a group, and if we aren't doing that then the next step I fear is VRC-style abandonment and IVMTB.

I'm sorry John, I know as mod you've tried to temper this discussion here, and you've done an admirable job, but I think this is a healthy step that needs to be worked out. VRC wasn't able to solve the problem because they didn't own the forum, and because they couldn't stop insulting each other. But here, the forum stands alone and has Retro in the name, and even when you european guys get mad at one another, few of the rest of us can tell! (What the hell is a "Jammy Git" anyway!? )

What can I say...I don't like change. Why did you cats think my primary mountain bike is 16 years old!?

 

[cce]

i think there's a tendency among the hardcore collectors to start acquiring stuff because it's cool now, and to have something nobody else does, rather than to evoke the spirit of yesteryear, and the yearnings of your youth - which for me is what it's all about

NO ONE i rode with back in the day had even heard of mountain goat, for example, and the bikes we desired were the halo bikes from makers of the lava domes and tequestas we tooled round on, and sometimes not even the top models. our expectations were somewhere sensibly above our means, with the hahanna owner lusting for the cinder cone because it was *JUST* out of reach

so are a lot of these "collector" machines bought because they are collectable and for no other reason?