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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:48 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Thats great, but if you are trying to sell which you say you are, then you need to put it in the right section and put a price on it, not put it up for offers, as in the forum rules, or the thread will probably be locked or deleted by a mod :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:50 pm 
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pipmeister wrote:
KHot Fan wrote:
I had not heard of many of the >1996, 853 Hot frames breaking at least not the main triangles. Where have the failures been that you are aware of? I could understand some failures at the dropouts, more so of the flat style dropouts and the slightly less robust 753 rear triangles.

We are still trying to piece the rumours together, and come up with something nearer the truth, but here is something written back in 2015 by a knowledgeable chap on here. Scroll down to the last post Wed Dec 02, 2015:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=337664&p=2523205&hilit

....and here is something more recent, where I popped up a couple of pictures:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=85041&p=2930277&hilit

We have also heard of the Stays popping out of the Dropouts, which would suggest the Cast Investment Goathead type, but I've never seen a picture of this.

Pip.


Good info there Pip. Thanks for the first link to that Altitude build theory. I'm glad I got a good one. I did not baby my bike but I take good care of my stuff and keep things in good alignment and wheels true. My Hot has been pretty much flawless overall. It's strange that Altitude did not stamp the SN's with more consistent numbers or am I reading this wrong? HT0111 sounds like the earliest example here. Then HT121, HT123, HT0192, HT209 with no "0" first digit on 121, 123 and 209? Mine obviously has the 0127. There must have been plans for contracts less than 9999 but no 0's on some of the SN's. Does anyone know what the last SN frame was made at Altitude and does anyone have pics of the Enigma Hot's dropouts? It would be interesting to compare the Altitude Hots to the Enigma Hots. Also Reynolds made you qualify your work as I mentioned earlier. This was how they started licensing frame builders and teaching them how to work with the air hardened 853. So Canuck's Altitude theory is probably not what we might say is "gospel". I mean Altitude had to pass the Reynolds testing for certification but using the 753 on the rear triangle would be the weak link here and they did taper the stays pretty fine. Did Enigma move to drawing out the stays in 853 and redesign the dropouts to work with most likely the stouter 853 stay shape? The 753 stays like on my Hot are highly ovalized in shape compared to the very robust and barely oval 853 stays on my 1997 Waterford 2200 road bike. So shaping the 853 has to be much more difficult as compared to the 753. The 853 is super hard tubing, you can barely even dent it with a hammer.


Last edited by KHot Fan on Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:55 pm 
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mkone wrote:
Thats great, but if you are trying to sell which you say you are, then you need to put it in the right section and put a price on it, not put it up for offers, as in the forum rules, or the thread will probably be locked or deleted by a mod :wink:


Ok, thanks for the heads up and warning. No more talk of selling in this thread and I'll delete the previous mentions by me. I am just trying to see if the build I had/ have was of interest to folks here, enough so that I should list it.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 6:17 am 
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KHot Fan wrote:
Does anyone know what the last SN frame was made at Altitude and does anyone have pics of the Enigma Hot's dropouts? It would be interesting to compare the Altitude Hots to the Enigma Hots. Also Reynolds made you qualify your work as I mentioned earlier. This was how they started licensing frame builders and teaching them how to work with the air hardened 853.

There is a lot of discussion on here regarding what happened with Jeff Lindsay's Altitude outfit. Just have a search on here, or even read all of al-onestare's 1997 Caldera thread that I linked.

You may find some answers by reading al-onestare's 1997 Hot thread:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=381062&hilit

This particular thread is quite old now, and we have learnt a bit more since, but it may help explain a few points. A certain JeffB, who claims to have started Enigma chips in on page 2 Thu Jul 03, 2008 - have a read of the whole thread though:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32150

I have on file 4 of what we think are the last batch of Altitude built Hot frames. These are 1997 models and welded in November 1996, just before the outfit was closed. The very highest number is H09611110 - welded in 1996, November, serial 110.

Finally, Enigma Hot dropouts look like (are the same as?) the New Drop (Dew Drop) Cast Investment design that are found on some production models like the Explosif. We assume that the "K" stands for Kona.

Attachment:
1998 Hot KH89083_9 .jpg
1998 Hot KH89083_9 .jpg [ 165.91 KiB | Viewed 142 times ]


Pip


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:28 am 
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So, here's a question. When, do we think Tom stopped making bikes for Kona? What's the last known one we know of?

Combine that with the first known Altitude frame, it's be interesting to see if there's any cross-over or how long the handover gap was.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:32 am 
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KHot Fan wrote:
Hi all! I'm new to the forum but have lurked a little bit here over the years. I am the original owner of the Kona Hot Stars 'n' Bars described in the title. I ordered it from Kona through friends that owned a bike shop in Kalamazoo Michigan in early spring of 1996. I bought it as a frame and built it up with a custom kit. The reason I am posting this thread here is after owning the bike 23 years I am going to sell it. I am putting it out here to see if there is any interest in this frame and the original components from the build that I still have.

I rode the bike for a little over 10 years and then made some changes to to the build but after late 2006 it has not seen much riding time. Obviously I replaced chain rings and cassettes over that time and took very good care of the bike. I traveled with the bike and rode it all over North America including Whistler in the old school days just as the bike park was getting started. The Hot was a great bike and served me very well as back country trail and sometimes xc race bike.

I have it taken down to the frame and have most of the components as I said earlier. I originally treated the frame internally with J.R. Weigle's Frame Saver and it's never had a spec of rust. The frame has some scratches and chips in the paint and it had chain suck a few times but overall it's in very good shape. Kona even supplied us original owners with touch up paint on these custom paint jobs. I still have the red, white and blue touch up paint. I also have the original seat post clamp and rear brake cable routing guide that slides down the seat tube below the seat clamp.

I am going to list my original build that I ended up with after I massaged and tweaked the build over the first year. I still own most of the components with a few exceptions which I will list below.

Here's the original build:
1996 16" Kona Hot Stars 'n' Bars
Specialized Judy FSX with Englund Air Kit and carbon fork brace
Mavic 217 rims/ Hugi Sulver Hubs/ DT DB 14/16 spokes, Now Bontrager Valiant Asymetrical Ceramic rims/ Hugi Hubs DT SG 14g spokes
Ritchey WCS Z Max 2.1 tires
Shimano XTR 12-32 Cassette
Specialized Ti black skewers
Shimano XTR RD M-950 w/ Avid Rollamajig
Shimano XTR FD M-950 w/ Carbon E-Clamp on BB
Grip Shift Attack 8 spd shifters
Specialized Direct Drive Ti Bottom Bracket (made by TnT)
RaceFace Turbine LP, Silver 110/74, 175 w/ Race Face Silver chainrings 24/34/46, Now RF Black chainrings 24/34/46
Chris King Silver Headset
Kore Silver 120/ 0 deg Stem
Answer Hyperlight Flat Bars then Specialized Thermo Plastic Flat Carbon Bars (I have both and a brand new Hyperlight bar)
Marinovative Cheap Trick, Silver Brakes, the original long arm brake designed by Ben Capron in 1989
Real Brake Levers, Silver, Long Pull
Onza CWA Black/ Silver bar ends
Answer Rocker seat post 27mm
Avocet Ti 40M saddle


I still have every component except the Specialized FSX Judy, Kore stem and the Real brake levers. I rebuilt the Ti BB once, it has 4 cartridge bearings and I upgraded them the Abec 5 bearings when I rebuilt it. I's still butter smooth. The RF Turbine LP cranks are in great shape and have seen a few chainring replacements. It currently has RF black rings. Unfortunately I put the FSX fork on my ex-wife's hardtail and lost the fork in that split.

I will post some photos of the frame and components when I get a chance but here's a shot of the last build it saw with a Fox Float RL, an a Avid BB7 front brake, disc brake DT front wheel, Paul Love Levers and Fizik Nisene saddle.
Attachment:
Kona Hot 1.JPG

Let me know if anyone has any questions and if any body has any interest in this frame and the components that I have.


If you're on Facebook then you might want to consider selling on some of the well known retro selling site and the Kona fan appreciation groups. We can take this offline if you want to know more.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 9:52 am 
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al-onestare wrote:
So, here's a question. When, do we think Tom stopped making bikes for Kona? What's the last known one we know of?

Combine that with the first known Altitude frame, it's be interesting to see if there's any cross-over or how long the handover gap was.

The latest (highest number) Hot built by Tom that I have on record was owned by shauno seen in the link below - Serial number TET 1681

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=382936&hilit

Sadly that particular example is missing the Block “Kona” & Italic “Custom" decal towards the rear of the Top Tube, as seem on Ernie's Tom Teasdale 18” 1995 Taquilla Sunrise which has a serial number of TET 1507:
Attachment:
Kona Hot 18 TET1507.jpg
Kona Hot 18 TET1507.jpg [ 261.86 KiB | Viewed 116 times ]


The earliest (lowest number) Altitude Hot that I have on record is Woodsie's 1996 17” Burgundy Hot serial HT0111, which as we have learnt has Goathead Dropouts. The lowest number that I have on record with Pre-Goathead Dropouts is iveto1983's 1996 19” Stars ‘n’ Bars Hot seria HT121.

Obviously there is the difference in tubing between Tom's and Altitude, leaving a similarity in the Top Tube cable arrangement for the Rear Brake. Some, but not all Altitude 1996 Hots have the single Brake Stop at the front of the Top Tube to be used with a Dog Collar, more commonly seen on 1995 Kona frames.

Pip.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 11:26 am 
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al-onestare wrote:
So, here's a question. When, do we think Tom stopped making bikes for Kona? What's the last known one we know of?

Combine that with the first known Altitude frame, it's be interesting to see if there's any cross-over or how long the handover gap was.

.......Remember that Kona were using both Tom Teasdale and Jeff Lindsay for the 1995 Line-Up.

The Ku was produced for the 1995 catalogue when Tom was still building the Hots. We understand that Tom did not work with Aluminum, and therefore assume that the 1995 Ku was built by either Jeff's outfit Mountain Goat, which closed in late 1995, or by a former Mountain Goat welder working at Jeff's new outfit Altitude Cycles that opened in April 1994. Altitude definitely built the 1996 Ku and 1997 (Decaled) Ku, evidenced by the Altitude serial number.

Some early 1996 Ku frames have a similar serial number format to some of the early 1996 Altitude Hots - i.e. KU0160. So it seems likely that one or other of Jeff's outfits built the 1995 Ku as well as the 1996 and 1997 models. Sadly I only have 1 example of a 1995 Ku serial number, but it is unconfirmed as I have no picture. We were told verbally that it is KU401, although I think that the first digit is a 1 that has been mistaken for a 4, but it is still in the same format.

Pip
Edit: Apologies that I put the wrong year that Mountain Goat closed - it now reads late 1995.


Last edited by pipmeister on Wed Apr 17, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 17, 2019 3:33 pm 
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Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 6:01 pm
Posts: 8
pipmeister wrote:
KHot Fan wrote:
Does anyone know what the last SN frame was made at Altitude and does anyone have pics of the Enigma Hot's dropouts? It would be interesting to compare the Altitude Hots to the Enigma Hots. Also Reynolds made you qualify your work as I mentioned earlier. This was how they started licensing frame builders and teaching them how to work with the air hardened 853.

There is a lot of discussion on here regarding what happened with Jeff Lindsay's Altitude outfit. Just have a search on here, or even read all of al-onestare's 1997 Caldera thread that I linked.

You may find some answers by reading al-onestare's 1997 Hot thread:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=381062&hilit

This particular thread is quite old now, and we have learnt a bit more since, but it may help explain a few points. A certain JeffB, who claims to have started Enigma chips in on page 2 Thu Jul 03, 2008 - have a read of the whole thread though:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32150

I have on file 4 of what we think are the last batch of Altitude built Hot frames. These are 1997 models and welded in November 1996, just before the outfit was closed. The very highest number is H09611110 - welded in 1996, November, serial 110.

Finally, Enigma Hot dropouts look like (are the same as?) the New Drop (Dew Drop) Cast Investment design that are found on some production models like the Explosif. We assume that the "K" stands for Kona.

Attachment:
1998 Hot KH89083_9 .jpg


Pip


Thanks for this photo! I know you probably know this but note the larger diameter stays at the dropout on this Enigma frame. This larger diameter is more inline with the size of the stays on my 1997 Waterford 2200 with it's 100% 853 tube set. Enigma most likely used 853 for the stays vs the 753 on the Altitude stays.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:43 am 
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So reading posts here and in other threads, it sounds like TT might have lost the Hot contract to JL because of contract consolidation reasons as often happened. Altitude took on the Hot project with the new 853 tubing but it was probably more of a learning curve than initially thought. The other and probably biggest issue was blending the 853 main frame with the 753 stays. Were there stay failures at the BB welds?

There’s a bit of lateral flex in these Hot frames that can be attributed to the stays. It’s not a bad thing it’s just that you subcontiously compensate for that lateral flex when you’re riding but in comparison to other steel frames I feel it’s noticeable.

This discussion about the Hots has now got me wanting to rebuild my bike and ride it again. And I do still have enough of a kit to pull that off. Tires in the 26” wheel are the one thing I’m not flush in.


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