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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 7:17 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Location: Yateley, Hants.
james1985 wrote:
Just got back home, so dug the S&G out for a photo.
Attachment:
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Attachment:
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So that's an early Muddyfox, like the one in this thread.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=290545

S&G would appear to be a shop in Cambridge.

Must have been 83/84 so another one early to the Party like the Evans Saracens although Japanese made.

Like LGF said they did have a good marketing department so sold well.

Carl.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:25 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:44 pm
Posts: 158
Location: bristol
A couple of comments arising from earlier posts

According to the NORBA Newletter ' Grass Routes ' Pioneer Issue ( 1985 ? ) in an article by Dick and Nick Crane
titled ' Whats it like to ride a bike at 19,000 ft ? ' they said " The bikes we chose were Saracen ATBs ,
standard production models modified with extra low gearing which produced a 'winch' ratio of 18 inches "

When I was trying to source some Nokia Hakkapeliitta 650b tyres for a restoration a few years ago , I discovered that
these tyres had for some time been used in cycle speedway in the 26" x 1.3/8' ( roadster ) size

Is it a giant leap to suggest that in this popular size they may have been used by members of the
Rough Stuff Fellowship and come to the notice of the designer of a certain ' Gentlemans cross country bicycle '


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:30 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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It's been documented that 26" was used because that's what they could get tyres for stateside. They did get a few 650b nokias from Geoff apps I believe but were already down the 26" rabbit hole by then.

Carl


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 12:04 am 
Old School Hero

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:44 pm
Posts: 158
Location: bristol
In my reference to Nokia tyres I was suggesting that since they were in use by cycle speedway riders
a long time ago ie. in the 70's ? that they may have been found ideal for use by members of the RSF
at around that time

I was merely indicating a possible tenuous link between the design of the cycle speedway tyres , and their
use by the RSF , which may have triggered the subsequent use of a similar design/construction of tyre ,
albeit of a larger diameter/section , in various 'Cleland' type incarnations .

This is not a reference to 26" versus 650b tyre availability , merely a conjecture about how that particular
Finnish tyre design , the NOKIA Hakkapeliitta , was found particularly suitable for off road use in the early 80's


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 1:13 am 
retrobike rider
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focomat 1c wrote:
In my reference to Nokia tyres I was suggesting that since they were in use by cycle speedway riders
a long time ago ie. in the 70's ? that they may have been found ideal for use by members of the RSF
at around that time

I was merely indicating a possible tenuous link between the design of the cycle speedway tyres , and their
use by the RSF , which may have triggered the subsequent use of a similar design/construction of tyre ,
albeit of a larger diameter/section , in various 'Cleland' type incarnations .

This is not a reference to 26" versus 650b tyre availability , merely a conjecture about how that particular
Finnish tyre design , the NOKIA Hakkapeliitta , was found particularly suitable for off road use in the early 80's

I believe that you right in asserting that the availability of suitable tyres was key to the early develpoment of off-road bicycles and cycling. According to Charlie Kelly the Americans only had one suitable tire, the Uniroyal Knobby. Without that first tire Klunker riding and later mountain-biking may not have developed in California. The fact that this was a low tax children's tire size sealed the deal with early US manufacturers.

Other areas of the world had their own best-fit off-road tyre. In 1930's France it was the 650Bx40mm Randonneur tyres later used by the Paris VCCP club. In Britain they were later for custom built rough-stuff bikes though most RSF riders used unmodified road bikes standard road tyres. In the US, Early US pioneer John Finley-Scott used them for his English derived 'Woodsie rough-stuff bikes. Tom Ritchey says that he made such bikes for Finley-Scott before he had ever made mountain bikes.

After WW2, utilising the ready availability of bomb-sites, cycle speedway became very popular in Britain. In response, British manufacturers quickly developed knobbly tyres in the 26" x 1.3/8' roadster size. This in tern led to teenagers using these tyres to make what are now commonly refered to as 'Tracker' bikes. Both the Cycle Seedway and 'Tracker' crazes spread abroad which is how Nokia came to manufacure cycle speedway knobblies.

Though I have no doubt that RSF members would have ridden bikes fitted with the 26" x 1.3/8' roadster tyres, I am not aware of them opting to fit cycle-speedway knobblies. Ironically it was Geoff Apps company Cleland Cycles that introduced Nokia cycle-speedway tires to the UK after they became the sole importer for Nokia bicycle tyres.

In Finland made a wide range of knobbly snow tires in a wide range of sizes for scandinavian domestic use. The 650x54mm tyres that Apps used on his production bikes were developed for military use by ski/cycle regiments. The bikes they used were specialist single speed roadsters designed to operate in the forests when there was not enough snow for skis to be used.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:25 am 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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Location: Royal Forest of Dean (Still looking for the Bear !)
Your all wrong - Here’s proof

https://m.facebook.com/marketplace/item ... 092751890/

Geoff Apes and Charlie Cunningham would have been short pants back then so deffo the winner

:facepalm:


Attachments:
C7270688-56D5-4903-8CFC-7335C433D14D.jpeg
C7270688-56D5-4903-8CFC-7335C433D14D.jpeg [ 156.85 KiB | Viewed 611 times ]
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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 3:12 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 9:44 pm
Posts: 158
Location: bristol
Thanks Graham for your interesting insight .

It would be nice to know exactly how/when Geoff Apps first became aware of Nokia as a potential source of cross country tyres ?

This would enable us to complete the 'timeline' in the development of the Cleland bikes , the design
of which ( and the later Highpath ) was heavily dependent on the Hakka 650b tyre


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:45 pm 
retrobike rider
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Oops, Double Post :facepalm:


Last edited by GrahamJohnWallace on Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:47 pm 
retrobike rider
retrobike rider
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Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2008 6:25 pm
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Location: Near Wendover Bucks
focomat 1c wrote:
Thanks Graham for your interesting insight .

It would be nice to know exactly how/when Geoff Apps first became aware of Nokia as a potential source of cross country tyres ?

This would enable us to complete the 'timeline' in the development of the Cleland bikes , the design
of which ( and the later Highpath ) was heavily dependent on the Hakka 650b tyre

Hi focomat 1c, I know the story regarding the sequence of events that led to the development of Apps' 650b Hakka tyre bikes, however pinning down the exact timeline will take a little digging.

The story goes like this:
Like many other 'Tracker' bike riders, Apps had been fiddling around with modifying existing frames for off-road use since the mid 1960s. During which time as well as riding his 'Tracker' bicycle he tried out and modified any type of bike he could get his hands on including shopper, roadsters, and butcher's delivery bikes. What made him start thinking about designing a custom made bike was a 'Bike of the Future' competition being held by a UK newspaper or magazine. Drawing also on his motorcycle trials experience he drew up a design and entered it. He wasn't alone as their were several other designs that the judges derided as peddle powered scramble motorbikes and so decided not to award any prizes in their 'leisure bikes category'.

Undeterred Apps decided to make the bike that he had designed. With astonishing tenacity in those pre-internet days, he researched the hell out of the topic. In the process he discovered the Nokia Hakkapeliitta snow tyres whilst reading about cycling in Finland, the matching 650b ally rims made by Super Champion in France and the obscure French 'Leleu' self-centring drum-brakes from discussing brakes with tandem specialists in London.

The long and the short of this tale is that he ended up producing a bike that was higher in quality and more capable than any 'Tracker' bike. Apps then decided to manufacture his design even though at £400 it would cost over four times the price of a good quality road bike.

Key dates & details to follow soon.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:46 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Sometimes you just have to admire the British spirit of innovation. Fascinating thread this. :D


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