When did Campag lose the plot?

ededwards":1c0i25ax said:

I'd totally disagree about Dura Ace though, the last good looking group that they made was 7400

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7400 was the era of grey paint!

The derailleurs were nice, I'll grant. The hubs were heavy and not well sealed. The 7400 cranks were square and boxy - though the 7410 was elegant. Compare the light 7700 hubs with their labyrinth seals, aluminium front axle, titanium freehub body, smooth shell forms, light quick releases...

and the new stuff is really hideous

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Ah, you see I wouldn't know.

Campag Super Record rear and front mechs
Campag Super Record small flange hubs with MA40s (would go with GP4s but tubs)
Dura Ace 7400 chainset
Suntour Superbe Pro brake calipers (or Campag Deltas, tough call this one)
Dura Ace 7400 aero brake levers
Simplex downtube shifters
Cinelli bars (66-44) and 1A stem
Rolls on a Super Record seatpost (if there was a long enough one :roll: )

An idiosyncratic choice but interested whether others would pick and mix or go down the groupset route.

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Didn't we do this before?

Mechs - Mavic 840 or Suntour Superbe Pro, but probably Mavic.

Hubs - has to be cassette hubs. I can't be doing with bent axles and screw-on blocks. Mavic 571HG, or Dura Ace 7700.

Cranks - C-Record, Superbe Pro, or maybe later Mavic. It would depend on the bike. Most of my chainrings are 130mm bcd, so that handicaps Campag choices.

Brakes - Superbe Pro or Mavic 451 - both made by Dia Compe in any case. Campag Chorus Monoplanar get an honourable mention.

Pedals - Campag Record TBS or Suntour Superbe Pro ... or XC Pro in fact - same bodies, but with grease-injectable axles. Or even Campag Triomphe. I really like those Triomphe pedals.

Headset - later Record, Mavic, or Shimano XTR. I can pretend I'm on the Paris-Roubaix.

These aren't independent choices though (C-Record cranks would favour TBS pedals. A late-model Mavic 631/2 would see me leaning towards the Triomphes).

And of course it all depends so much on the frame...

one-eyed_jim":3dcp389e said:

7400 was the era of grey paint!

The derailleurs were nice, I'll grant. The hubs were heavy and not well sealed. The 7400 cranks were square and boxy - though the 7410 was elegant.

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Was 7400 painted grey? I had a groupset that I could swear was 7400 and that was all silver (indeed it is the groupset on Jerome's lovely Merckx posted on here) put I expect, as often, fragile memory has betrayed me.

Still like these cranks though

ededwards":24jjk6iz said:

Was 7400 painted grey?

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Bits of it were. Brake levers, shift levers, STIs...

Still like these cranks though

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I really can't get on with the mixture of curves and planes. It can't seem to decide which decade it belongs to. Still, each to his own.

I agree that it depends on the frame.

Italian bikes should never have anything else on them IMO.
A Merckx would wear either well.
I would only hang Dura Ace on something like a Merlin or a Miyata.

My own road bike wears a mixture, Shimano shifts well, Campagnolo looks nice, so shifty clicky things are Japanese, twirly looky things are Italian.

Personally, I reckon Campy and Shimano both look ugly now, and neither of them make stuff I'm interested in on the road side.. Carbon is supposed to look all serious and workmanlike, but in the past I just think they cared more about how it looked.

Stick Legs":7bhcug1r said:

I agree that it depends on the frame.

Italian bikes should never have anything else on them IMO.
A Merckx would wear either well.
I would only hang Dura Ace on something like a Merlin or a Miyata.

My own road bike wears a mixture, Shimano shifts well, Campagnolo looks nice, so shifty clicky things are Japanese, twirly looky things are Italian.

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Agreement here. Spotted a Koga Miyata FullPro Carbolite with full graphite Croce d Aune not long ago. Looked so crap. The Campa was much too flamboyant, romantic for that frame.

Shimano just looks right on all my Japanese rides. Miyata US did a Campa spec bike though, the early 80s Team Miyata SL with Super Record. Didn't look bad at all on that one.

Also have quite a lot Campa in my stable, but that is on the Dutch rides. Dutch rides not necessarely require Campa though. 'Dutch' is with a pragmatic attitude, so for example use what you have laying around or what you think is best for a particular task. Recently got hands on a Champion Mondial with a mix of DA, NR, N-GS and Ofmega. Typical.

Italian bikes, yes, I think Campa is the obvious choice than.

ededwards":1jenxcka said:

Campag Super Record rear and front mechs
Campag Super Record small flange hubs with MA40s (would go with GP4s but tubs)
Dura Ace 7400 chainset
Suntour Superbe Pro brake calipers (or Campag Deltas, tough call this one)
Dura Ace 7400 aero brake levers
Simplex downtube shifters
Cinelli bars (66-44) and 1A stem
Rolls on a Super Record seatpost (if there was a long enough one :roll: )

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Ooh good spinoff. Have to participate

Mavic SSC rear and front mechs
Mavic SSC small flange hubs with MA40s (would go with GP4s but tubs)
Super Record Chainset and record BB
Record calipers
Nuovo Record brake levers
Simplex/Mavic retrofriction downtube shifters
Cinelli bars (66-44/Criterium?) and 1R stem
Cinelli Unica Nitor on a Nuovo Record seatpost
Suntour "Winner" 6 or 7 speed freewheel
regina "Oro" chain
Campag Superleggeri pedals (Or Time Equipe)
Record headset

I have nearly all this kit - but no frame to put it on. Am seriously considering getting Dave Yates or Tornado in Odense to build me one.

Stick Legs":1u6rv9ib said:

If you mean technology then Shimano have had the upper hand since 1994.

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I've had an electronic DA system to play with for a few months now and you are so so right.

One must look past the aesthetics and see deeper into the materials used in their products, and the functionality/fashion of the time.
Essentially, it was Shimano that created the necessity for Campagnolo to produce cheaper components in order to continue trading. Shimano offered what Campagnolo never had, in terms of low budget, low grade, high spec kit. The materials were questionable, but Shimano's gimics and functionality pushed them forward.
Campagnolo had long been at the forefront of road racing components, and also held big contracts with Ferrari to manufacture most of their wheels and engine parts. But, the far east was offering more for your money on the bike front.
Disposable bike components!
Race them for a few years and then replace it all at relatively low cost. You get all the features of the top race bike, but on a massive budget.
Campagnolo fought back (forceably) and started to offer graphite versions of their Athena and Chorus groupsets. This was their demise. They specced lower grade alloys that had a slacker grain structure which would lose their shine much quicker. They had to meet the demands of the market in order to survive.
Their profits were hurt badly by Shimano in the early 90's and it took sometime before Campagnolo could regain their purpose and lead in the market. They simply could not compete, and had to downscale and rethink the whole company structure.
As somebody has already said, the new Super record surpasses anything Shimano have out currently, and the attention to detail in its materials longevity will ensure a far longer life than its competitors, making it the better investment.

Benandemu":3h9uytdo said:

One must look past the aesthetics and see deeper into the materials used in their products, and the functionality/fashion of the time.
Essentially, it was Shimano that created the necessity Campagnolo to produce cheaper components in order to continue trading. Shimano offered what Campagnolo never had, in terms of low budget, low grade, high spec kit. The materials were questionable, but Shimano's gimics and functionality pushed them forward.

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To continue that theme it was the US bike boom that did it. For some reason the Europeans thought they could ignore it. Campagnolo in particular thought they could leave the bottom end of the market to everybody else and simply cream off the top end for themselves. The Japanese stepped up production quickly and supplied the hardware for millions of bikes a year, making a fortune in the process which Shimano sunk into R&D.

Of course Campagnolo weren't the only manufacturer to rest on their laurels. Suntour showed that the Japanese could do it too. Their patent on the slant parallelogram design meant that they had an advantage when it came to rear mechs, but when that patent expired the rest of the world were straight in. Shimano realised that taking the slant parallelogram and adding a sprung top pivot would improve the design further. They had clearly been waiting with that one, the year after Suntour's patent expired they introduced the indexed Dura Ace rear mech. Suntour never really got their indexing sorted out and more or less sunk less than ten years later.

It really is thanks to Shimano that development continued at such a pace for so long. I think there is evidence now, on all sides, of change for change's sake rather than to improve the breed.

However, all this talk about aesthetics...

I just don't get it. If something works right it should look right, as soon as you start pratting about with aesthetics you are messing with the functionality. Form should always follow function. That is the way, the truth and the light. On the dark side lies french car design.