Its a mystery to me Please Help for my 753 sake
- Thread starter Roofus
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Thanks David B, wow, that's potentially a lot of frame builders. I suppose unless anyone has encountered a similar BB serial number my mystery may remain unsolved. So far by fishing info on the web frame builders have an identifiable code or particular trait to distinguish themselves, this code could not be more opposite. odd if you have just built it for what I assume would be a serious rider, used relatively expensive materials and for big money. I will continue looking and fingers crossed.
daccordimark
Senior Retro Guru
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Just a couple of thoughts on this.
The fork steerer might hold clues about the tubing material. If the frame is built with Columbus tubing then there could well be a Columbus logo (a dove in a circle) on the steerer. Also, virtually all Columbus steerers had helical reinforcing ribs spiralling round inside the steerer. As for Reynolds tubing I have a 531SL frame with the words "Butted 13/16" on the fork steerer but I don't know if that is a thing common to all Reynolds tubesets.
Of course you'll have to take the forks out to check all this which is a bit of a pain.
On the frame number issue is it possible the 55 refers to the frame size? This would be the c-c measurement of the seat tube if we're speculating about possible Italian origins.
Mark.
The fork steerer might hold clues about the tubing material. If the frame is built with Columbus tubing then there could well be a Columbus logo (a dove in a circle) on the steerer. Also, virtually all Columbus steerers had helical reinforcing ribs spiralling round inside the steerer. As for Reynolds tubing I have a 531SL frame with the words "Butted 13/16" on the fork steerer but I don't know if that is a thing common to all Reynolds tubesets.
Of course you'll have to take the forks out to check all this which is a bit of a pain.
On the frame number issue is it possible the 55 refers to the frame size? This would be the c-c measurement of the seat tube if we're speculating about possible Italian origins.
Mark.
Hi, Mark,
Got the tape measure out this evening and from the centre of bb and running the length of the seat tube to a point that dissects with the centre of the top tube I measured 56cm and doubled checked to make sure. By being 56cm would it be customary to refer to this size as 22inch, and if Italian would they build to metric (cm) 54,55,56 etc or would they also follow the imperial frame sizes?
I will look into the fork steerer with regards any identifiable marks or codes, that's a really good point, thanks. I could just about look down the inside of the steerer with a torch and it looks smooth. One thing David B posted was for me to investigate the BB thread which turns out to be English tread, which suggest it may not have an Italian origin. Very confuddling?
Roofus
Got the tape measure out this evening and from the centre of bb and running the length of the seat tube to a point that dissects with the centre of the top tube I measured 56cm and doubled checked to make sure. By being 56cm would it be customary to refer to this size as 22inch, and if Italian would they build to metric (cm) 54,55,56 etc or would they also follow the imperial frame sizes?
I will look into the fork steerer with regards any identifiable marks or codes, that's a really good point, thanks. I could just about look down the inside of the steerer with a torch and it looks smooth. One thing David B posted was for me to investigate the BB thread which turns out to be English tread, which suggest it may not have an Italian origin. Very confuddling?
Roofus
Ghastlyrabbitfat
Dirt Disciple
Re:
Resurrecting this thread as stumbled across it whilst doing a search for "Phil Sherwood".
Strange that no-one mentioned Venom/Sabre as the possible origin of the frame when there is a "Venom" sticker on the down tube.
Venom were a Midlands based company who operated in the 90's before disappearing, perhaps due to some management difficulties or maybe the booming popularity of aluminium and carbon as materials for race frames.
They built with both Reynolds and Columbus tubing and perhaps did "designer select" type builds appropriate to the rider/usage. As a result they may not have had a decal applied denoting the tubing.
Team Sabre were a racing team they supplied frame builds, so frames might show "Venom Racing Cycles" or "Sabre Racing Cycles" or even just Venom or Sabre.
I currently have three (alleged) Venom/Sabre frame builds. The first I bought is a Mick Kowal (heralded as perhaps building 7 frames per day when supplying Ribble Cycles), but in Venom livery and I haven't been able to establish if Kowal did frame builds for Venom or if this was a one off, merely painted at Venom cycles. The standard of build is very high, imho, and it features a Cinelli BB shell and race number hanger.
The second is a training frame with clearance for guards, has eyelets for same but rides very spritely and feels like 74 parallel. The seller said it had been built to order for winter training but in racing geometry. The fork crown appears the same as the one in the pics above, and there are some other similarities. Brazing is a little rough about the seat cluster but "It's held together, hasn't it?", as Bob Jackson's pointed out when I had it refinished there.
Lastly is the low profile TT frame which has shot-in rear seat stays like the frame above and is also finished in the Bianchi Celeste colour.
Unhelpfully, none of my frames are serial numbered.
They ride brilliantly apart from the lo pro, which is scary as hell, perhaps how it should ride...
If anyone has any information regarding Venom/Sabre, please feel free to add here or pm me with the info: I've not been able to get much online.
Many Thanks and sorry for boring you....
Resurrecting this thread as stumbled across it whilst doing a search for "Phil Sherwood".
Strange that no-one mentioned Venom/Sabre as the possible origin of the frame when there is a "Venom" sticker on the down tube.
Venom were a Midlands based company who operated in the 90's before disappearing, perhaps due to some management difficulties or maybe the booming popularity of aluminium and carbon as materials for race frames.
They built with both Reynolds and Columbus tubing and perhaps did "designer select" type builds appropriate to the rider/usage. As a result they may not have had a decal applied denoting the tubing.
Team Sabre were a racing team they supplied frame builds, so frames might show "Venom Racing Cycles" or "Sabre Racing Cycles" or even just Venom or Sabre.
I currently have three (alleged) Venom/Sabre frame builds. The first I bought is a Mick Kowal (heralded as perhaps building 7 frames per day when supplying Ribble Cycles), but in Venom livery and I haven't been able to establish if Kowal did frame builds for Venom or if this was a one off, merely painted at Venom cycles. The standard of build is very high, imho, and it features a Cinelli BB shell and race number hanger.
The second is a training frame with clearance for guards, has eyelets for same but rides very spritely and feels like 74 parallel. The seller said it had been built to order for winter training but in racing geometry. The fork crown appears the same as the one in the pics above, and there are some other similarities. Brazing is a little rough about the seat cluster but "It's held together, hasn't it?", as Bob Jackson's pointed out when I had it refinished there.
Lastly is the low profile TT frame which has shot-in rear seat stays like the frame above and is also finished in the Bianchi Celeste colour.
Unhelpfully, none of my frames are serial numbered.
They ride brilliantly apart from the lo pro, which is scary as hell, perhaps how it should ride...
If anyone has any information regarding Venom/Sabre, please feel free to add here or pm me with the info: I've not been able to get much online.
Many Thanks and sorry for boring you....
Re:
Definitely not boring, very interesting for a fellow venom owner. I have always been surprised there is so little information about these hand built frames. Since my original post I have occasionally traweled the internet for further information which you may also be aware of:
Phil Sherwood shop was located in Stourbridge, the name Matt Norman cropped up as a frame builder, it was suggested Phil sherwood was a team Raleigh Mechanic. There was a cycle club in Stourbridge called Phil Sherwood cycle club.
Definitely not boring, very interesting for a fellow venom owner. I have always been surprised there is so little information about these hand built frames. Since my original post I have occasionally traweled the internet for further information which you may also be aware of:
Phil Sherwood shop was located in Stourbridge, the name Matt Norman cropped up as a frame builder, it was suggested Phil sherwood was a team Raleigh Mechanic. There was a cycle club in Stourbridge called Phil Sherwood cycle club.
Fifthgrace
Retro Guru
Re: Re:
I own a Dave Yates (Joe Waugh) built Reynolds 753 frame and have the original purchase invoice: the address was for Phil Sherwood Cycles, 54c Chawn Park Drive, Pedmore, Stourbridge DY9 OUG. The invoice dates from 1991 and the 753 stickers are the multicolour version as is on the referenced Venom bike. The frame and fork lugs of the Venom are consistent with those on many R753 frames. I'm not suggesting that it was built by Dave Yates, but Phil was sourcing frames from top 753 builders in the '90's.
The cost of my frame was £473 vs a RRP of £538. Not sure if this included the Holdsworth Orange paint job ! The frame came to me with Mavic SSC components (BB) which I think were original to its first build. It's a lovely riding bike.
.Roofus":366rc8op said:
I own a Dave Yates (Joe Waugh) built Reynolds 753 frame and have the original purchase invoice: the address was for Phil Sherwood Cycles, 54c Chawn Park Drive, Pedmore, Stourbridge DY9 OUG. The invoice dates from 1991 and the 753 stickers are the multicolour version as is on the referenced Venom bike. The frame and fork lugs of the Venom are consistent with those on many R753 frames. I'm not suggesting that it was built by Dave Yates, but Phil was sourcing frames from top 753 builders in the '90's.
The cost of my frame was £473 vs a RRP of £538. Not sure if this included the Holdsworth Orange paint job ! The frame came to me with Mavic SSC components (BB) which I think were original to its first build. It's a lovely riding bike.
Ha, good to see some feedback about Venom frames! I also have one, a Columbus Max version with a mono rear stay (I think the model was a Sitladin). Mine came to me about 25 years ago with both Venom and Alf Webb branding which was in a typically bright fluro green on black. I contacted Alf and he said that the frame was built for a rider he sponsored called Paul Searson (sp?). It has very tight clearances, bosses for only one bottle, and is stiff, I was told it had been built for Crit racing. I ride my Columbus Nemo Bioracer frame more these days but the Venom comes out now and then.
