Help with frame identification.

garyfarrar":1ybk2azo said:

I still haven't managed to get a definite i.d. on the frame. Thanks for the post, some very useful information there.

Click to expand...

I'm going to stick my neck out here and guess at a 1959/1960 early Challange as its listed with Continental lugs, but wouldnt have been supplied with the hi-end fork crown.

I think this frame #1568 is unlikely a c.59 Claud Butler Cordon Bleu (date that this # would fall on) as for that time frame would have had fluted stay caps. As well I would think there would have been an oiler on top of BB. My Flickr:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/76762476@ ... 5948556521

Challenge had non Nervex lugs. Believe Challenge lugs were "continental" Prugnat 62S?
https://www.bikeforums.net/19501620-post23.html

Serial does fit for a Holdsworth made in early 60's when for some reason Holdsworthy reverted back to a 4 digit system for part of 61?, 62, 63 and part of 64? Both for factory and batches of serials given to Putney Shop for specials. Factory Hurricane had Nervex lugs but these were Legere - at least from Kilgariff's section on the Hurricane. Again no apparent oiler - unusual. A Putney special? Number suggests c.1963. "dwscrimshaw" presently has yours listed in this system.
Kilgariff discusses this system:
http://retroride.blogspot.ca/2007/05/ho ... _1672.html

Suppose it could also be a "special" built in early 70's in the factory when they were doing their own. Helping with dwscrimshaw's Holdsworth data base it has come to light that these special builds also had their own separate 4 digit system and would likely place your frame around 1971. I've seen other frames with Nervex lugs from the factory at that time. If any where oiler would have been on bottom of BB which I don't see. Perhaps more likely to have absent oiler in this time frame.

dwscrimshaw:
https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/ ... TNKZkN4TmM

Doug

Looking at Piperdave's Cordon Bleu #3874 which dates to 1959, think it also does not have fluted stay eyes. So appears I was wrong about that feature in last post. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=108823

Are the seat stay eyes (semi) "wrap over" as with Cordon Bleu as not sure from pics?
Was there perhaps an oiler hole on top of BB that has been filled?
If either negative than still unlikely Cordon Bleu.

Doug

PS: *****I was wrong about c.1959 Cordon Bleu #3874. Poor pics. I PM'd Piperdave and his frame does indeed have fluted stay caps. So fact that yours does not, makes it unlikely a Cordon Bleu as per my other post.*****

Re:

Interesting stuff, I can see no evidence of an oiler hole having been filled in and it doesn't have semi wrap over stays so I guess that rules cordon bleau out.

Re:

The CB Coureur got nervex lugs in '61 but could it have had campag rear ends?

Still got my money on a Challange.....

As I have this down in the 4D 60's holdsworth group, should we combine them as a special build?
https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.p ... h#p1174936
https://www.cyclechat.net/threads/help- ... me.189779/

Re:

Probably a good idea.

done