Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?

Just got hold of a frame on Ebay looks to be a professional track frame with shop number 69441. Paint and Badge look original, not sure how you can tell really, plenty of orange paint in BB and up steerer tube. Has slightly curved rear stay as seen on other shop frames for the year. Joints for the Campag dropouts are concave rather than the normal domed, but this is seen on other frames too.

Has the correct Prugnat S head lugs, BB and allen bolt seat lug. Seems to be 74/73 angles, best as I can measure. Some odd things about it are the riveted badge, sloping fork crown and the semi wrap-over rear stays which I didn't think were used until late 70's.

Picture below. Any thoughts on the odd features?

Two additional photos

Re:

and the semi wrap-over rear stays which I didn't think were used until late 70's.

Click to expand...

Can you clarify? Not used by who?
This is a different top-eye treatment from that used on the Holdsworth Special, for example, which is a factory frame anyway. Those (Special) top eyes are shorter, and nowhere near meeting at the top of the lug. I know you have a Special also, so that might not be what you mean.

The top eye treatment on this frame is near identical to that on my 1975 mystery frame, which has a 75*** number in the same format, so I guess that could be a shop Holdsworth too.

Re:

As far as crown type goes, it appears to have been in common use. Anybody got a name?

Holdsworthy CB Olympic Sprints X 2 of same vintage with similar fork crown:
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=289101
viewtopic.php?t=212578

Here's a Shop '66 Italia Pista (Track) built for stock (66118K) on Dave's list, with I think identical crown:
http://www.thevintagebikelife.com/#!__holdsworth-pista
Check out N Kilgariff's input re same frame:
http://www.thevintagebikelife.com/#!__holdworth-desc-1

From what we know the Putney shop was doing mostly custom builds. Apparently there was a long waiting list. Besides Collard (the Pro and main Specials builder) there were other builders of frames for the "trade" who would have built off site, such as TJ Quick who was soon to take over from Collard, Alex Bird and maybe Charlie Roberts. Being built off site by various builders and not under the close control of a single facility as the factory, it is easy to suspect why many of Shop frames had varying features . Possibly a particular builder (or "custom-er") preferred semi wrap over seat stays which was not an uncommon feature by other builders at time and even earlier. Could almost touching stay caps be a compromise to approximate strength of full wrap over? Different builders offsite could also explain observation of variation in font and positioning of serial numbers on BB - something I've been looking at. In '69 at least most frames attributed to Collard had large numbers stacked on top of one another, vertically across BB. Others I've looked at, as track examples and frames built for stock (#'s followed by K) had smaller numbers with variable font along edge of BB.

Just my 2P worth of thoughts and here's hoping someone with first hand knowledge will chime in.

Re: Re:

torqueless":2v6vdsiq said:

and the semi wrap-over rear stays which I didn't think were used until late 70's.

Click to expand...

Can you clarify? Not used by who?
This is a different top-eye treatment from that used on the Holdsworth Special, for example, which is a factory frame anyway. Those (Special) top eyes are shorter, and nowhere near meeting at the top of the lug. I know you have a Special also, so that might not be what you mean.

The top eye treatment on this frame is near identical to that on my 1975 mystery frame, which has a 75*** number in the same format, so I guess that could be a shop Holdsworth too.

Click to expand...

It was this track Pro that caught my eye, not sure if it is documented anywhere if and when this changed, but I think there are other examples from late 70's on wards. You are right it is different to
the Special see attached.
https://www.pedalroom.com/bike/holdswor ... al--30986#

Dave,

Again, majority of Shop frames were custom builds with lots of variation in details.

Look at the different seat stay full wrap over style on this obviously custom Pro Shop build #69551. Much narrower then usual chunky style associated with 69 Shop Pro. https://www.flickr.com/photos/woodstock ... 855603285/

As an example of a similar vintage frame with closer to your style of semi wrapover seat stay is this '64 Hurlow presently on H Stone's site. http://www.hilarystone.com/images/sale% ... t-1664.jpg Further better views of his seat stay treatment under Classic Lightweights. I am in no way implying that Hurlow even perhaps built your frame - this is just an example of a builder at same time that did not seem to prefer the full wrapover.

Yes, seems to be a lot very similar to this, same with the crown, similar but with some subtle differences around the edge. Re-Reading the history site one characteristic of a 1969 Shop Pro is the lack of chrome, But also says no pop rivets used.

I guess there is the frame number and enough other items to make this a 69 shop frame with the usual questions marks which could be attributed to builder variations.

Re:

Dave
Here's a pic of 66118K Italia Pista(Track) for comparison of fork crown. Does it have same embellishment to lower outside edge of crown compared with yours? Also there is a picture on this fellow's site that shows serial number placement along edge of BB, similar to yours.
Doug

Yes, I think this is close enough, possible less pronounced corner, but that could be down to the builder. I think the basic crown is the same. There is also a flat top version around with larger window as a result, I guess the flat top came latter. Good to see an example of a sloping crown. Thanks

Re:

Perhaps someone with frame building experience will contribute.

To my amateur eye, yours and 66118K look identical. Also similar vintage CB Olympic Sprints that I link to above, other than detail on lower outer edge, have same slope and design. Perhaps the shop crown lower edge, if not a slightly fancier design, was an embellishment by artisan frame builder as is sometimes seen.

Here's pics as per prior quoted Olympic Sprint threads: