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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:06 pm 
Dirt Disciple

Joined: Tue Dec 09, 2014 8:36 pm
Posts: 33
having done some reasearch myself I believe when peter cobb retired, frames were still made at the shop but by ray moore, maybe he would of tried to copy peter cobbs wrap over stays but still badged them as Allin's?

chris


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:23 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Brandon, Suffolk, UK
Could well be correct. Whoever made the frames - even if they were bought in - they still would have been branded 'Allin'. The 'Standard' model on Ebay does not have components anything near as high quality as yours. Assuming that the parts on your machine are original (and it would be surprising if they were not), you must have a 'Special' Model.
Lloyds have the correct decals in stock along with the appropriate Reynolds decal should you wish to replace it


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:32 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 1992
Location: Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds & W. Sussex on the beach.
VeloFellow54 wrote:
Could well be correct. Whoever made the frames - even if they were bought in - they still would have been branded 'Allin'. The 'Standard' model on Ebay does not have components anything near as high quality as yours. Assuming that the parts on your machine are original (and it would be surprising if they were not), you must have a 'Special' Model.
Lloyds have the correct decals in stock along with the appropriate Reynolds decal should you wish to replace it


The OPs bicycle is not a Special - the bicycle on Ebay does not have the full decal that would show Standard.

Jon.

N.B decals do not always a bicycle make.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 8:29 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Brandon, Suffolk, UK
I must be looking at a different machine on Ebay - see picture


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 9:45 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 1992
Location: Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds & W. Sussex on the beach.
i have seen this bicycle, and the standard in the swag has been cut from a completely different decal - I know my Allins and the various models and the correct decals that are used on the various models.

The ebay Allin looks like a post Peter Cobb Allin to me, there are certain signature features that are missing.

Jon.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2017 10:02 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Brandon, Suffolk, UK
I see your point. I misunderstood your previous post.
Presumably Allin continued selling these machinesm (Stan Butler models) after Peter Cobb died - hence the relatively poor quality of the frames ? Did they make them - or were they bought in ?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:50 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Brandon, Suffolk, UK
More on Allin frames :
I have acquired a further 2 Allin frames recently that may be of interest.
The first of these has Ekla lugs and fits perfectly with the description in 'Cycling' from December 1948 describing the 'new' Stan Butler Model' (note use of singular - not 'models').This recent acquisition is stamped in the fork tube and left rear drop out with number 520. I am not certain that Allin continued to use Ekla lugs after around 1950 once Nervex lugs became available. Maybe a reader can clarify this point ?

The other frame that I own (almost identical except the top eyes and fork crown are a different design) is frame number 672. Sadly, frame 520 has been re painted. I believe this was done by Allins some time in the 1970's. The decals have all been replaced with water slide types and the seat tube decal simply reads 'Stan Butler Model'. Based on the information in Cycling from December 1948 it would be reasonable to assume that frame 520 cannot have been made earlier than 1948 which would appear to indicate that post war frame production commenced with a lower number than 500 (suggested on The Classic Lightweights site). I have attached a copy of the article from Cycling. A good description is given including frame angles and fork offset.

The second frame appears to be a fillet brazed, or more likely welded frame and is numbered (again on the fork tube and left rear drop out) with 1743. This one also has been refinished (I suspect) and also carries water slide decals. The decal on the seat tube being 'Popular Stan Butler Model'. I suspect that this dates from about 1964. Whilst a nicely finished frame, it in no way is comparable with the earlier frames being considerably heavier. Both frames 520 and 672 are extremely light in weight (compared to my 1950 Grubb Perfection) and have nicely 'cushioned' lugs.

I have compared the water slide decals on these frames with the vinyl types supplied by H Lloyd and feel certain that the decals on them originated at Allins. However I would be interested to know if anyone other than Lloyds have originated replacement decals for Allin machines of waterslide type.

Also,to attempt to clarify frame numbers / dates it would be interesting to compile a list of numbers if possible from earlier machines particularly if they have original paint / decals or receipts indicating dates. Perhaps other owners of early Allin frames may wish to contribute.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:14 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Nov 24, 2010 4:38 pm
Posts: 1992
Location: Lovely Lincolnshire Wolds & W. Sussex on the beach.
VeloFellow54 wrote:
More on Allin frames :
I have acquired a further 2 Allin frames recently that may be of interest.
The first of these has Ekla lugs and fits perfectly with the description in 'Cycling' from December 1948 describing the 'new' Stan Butler Model' (note use of singular - not 'models').This recent acquisition is stamped in the fork tube and left rear drop out with number 520. I am not certain that Allin continued to use Ekla lugs after around 1950 once Nervex lugs became available. Maybe a reader can clarify this point ?

I have compared the water slide decals on these frames with the vinyl types supplied by H Lloyd and feel certain that the decals on them originated at Allins. However I would be interested to know if anyone other than Lloyds have originated replacement decals for Allin machines of waterslide type.

Also,to attempt to clarify frame numbers / dates it would be interesting to compile a list of numbers if possible from earlier machines particularly if they have original paint / decals or receipts indicating dates. Perhaps other owners of early Allin frames may wish to contribute.


Firstly regarding lugs, Allin used many different lug styles over the years, in Peter Cobbs lair there were many boxes of lugs of these various types - bought in bulk and many were left over long after their production ceased*.

I have a number of sets of original waterslide decals including the two downtube font styles that were available. A friend has the Allin frame book and another worked in the shop for over two decades.

Think you may have mis-read the ad', viz your singular point. In any case typesetters were often guilty of typos !!! There were three Stan Butler models, all are detailed in the price lists I have in my collection.

Pics are useful when discussing frames.

Rk.

*last year I bought two sets of Capella lugs - how old are they (rhetorical question I knowhow old they are) ?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 29, 2017 11:29 am 
Old School Hero

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Brandon, Suffolk, UK
Excellent !
Looking forward to seeing a copy of the 1948/9 price list and maybe perhaps a scan of pages from the frame book. This would enable us to know exactly what the Allin range was between WW2 and 1950 and would also determine the frame number system that was used post war. Then the Classic Lightweights page can be updated further.


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PostPosted: Wed May 10, 2017 9:34 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 2:01 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Brandon, Suffolk, UK
I have researched further with respect to Allin bicycles in 'Cycling'
During 1949 in the small ads Allin were offering 'The Stan Butler Model' in several issues at 15 guineas. In January 1950 the following appeared :

'ALLINS of Croydon. The new ''S B Special'' frame at 15 guineas ; the last word in design and finish. S B Standard 13 guineas, and the Club Welded at £10 19s 6d. Delivery 8 weeks. On show at 57 Whitehouse Road, West Croydon. Full details from Stan Butler, above address''

I have copied this precisely as it appeared in the advertisement.

There was no mention whatsoever during 1949 of 'Special' or 'Standard' so I still have to conclude that the article from December 1948 was correct and that the 'Special' model came about one year later when the range was increased (note the description of the Special as 'new' in January 1950). Further, I suspect that Club Welded became the 'Popular' model at some point and I feel certain that this will show up in Allins' advertising in Cycling at some later point.

Since this information is taken from multiple adverts paid for by Allin, I doubt very much that this is all 'typos'...............


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