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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 3:33 pm 
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Location: suffolk
Hi,

I've taken delivery of a nice 1980's steel TT frameset from a low volume british builder and was wondering if you guys could have a stab at guessing the tubing type?.

I'm guessing it's early 80's as it has a Campag Portacatena rear dropout. It is a lugged construction with double butted steel tubes. The seatpost diameter is 27.0mm and it's measurements are 21" c-c seat tube with a 22" c-c top tube. The frame weight is 1750 grams and the forks are 630 grams.

I'm having difficulty seeing past the possibility of it being 753 with those weights but I'm unaware of the specifics of other lightweight tubings such as Columbus KL or Ishiwata 017/019. There is no paintloss around any of the lugs so I can't check the type of brazing material and the paint's not so bad that I'd want to scratch some off to check either.

Can anyone offer some info that might make it easier to identify?.

The frameset is not my size so will be going up for sale at some point in the near future and I'd like to be able to describe it with some confidence.

Thanks for your time.

Matt


Last edited by Matt70 on Wed Dec 21, 2016 6:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:07 pm 
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Joined: Mon Feb 11, 2008 9:42 am
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The manufacturer might help, some preferred working in certain manufacturers tubesets, then with the weight it can be narrowed down further.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 4:49 pm 
Old School Grand Master

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:55 pm
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Location: New Forest, UK
The obvious one is to check down the seat tube for rifling, which would be a Columbus tubeset.
753 should take a 27.2 seatpost, not 27.0.

My feeling is that the weight you quote is more in the region of 531c than 753 as it's a small size. That would also fit with a 27.0 post.

However absolute weight depends on lug design, stay length etc so there is no absolute guide.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:21 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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If you're lucky the type of tubing might be fainting stamped somewhere on the frame - If you're really lucky it might be on the steerer tube. I have a mystery French frame that I looked over very closely using a torch and was able to see VITUS 172 stamped very lightly near the lugs on the three main tubes. I've not checked my Reynolds 531c Raleigh but I found these examples online:

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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:41 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:09 pm
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Location: suffolk
Thanks guys, some food for thought there.

My thoughts around Reynolds tubing were based on my 753 SBDU frameset which took a 27mm seatpost and although a couple of centimetres larger in the seat tube had a frame weight of 1750 grams and forks of 670 grams, so pretty similar.

There is no rifling in the seat tube, so I guess that discounts Columbus?.

The frame was built by B.E. 'Pinky' Green at Langdale Lightweights, which might shine a light on tubing preferences?, as suggested by mattr. There's not a great deal about their older bikes on the interweb as far as I can tell.

If anyone can point me in the right direction that'd be great.

Cheers Matt


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 5:50 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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Do you know how early 80s it is, is it pre or post 82/83?

Early 753 could have a seat pin size of 27mm. Have you measured the external diameters of the tubes to check if they are imperial or metric. (Metric would have a 28.0mm seat tube and Imperial would have 28.6) - Metric tubed frames are on the lighter side.

Frame weight is hard to use to guess material - I have a Metric 753, 531SL and 531c that all way in the same region.

Sometimes you might see a manufacturer mark in the steerer - it just depends where they have cut the steerer. I've seen 531 steerers marked "16/13" Butted Reynolds which is the gauge of the steerer. Use a little emery paper to take any paint off the steerer about an inch above the crown race to see if there is anything there.

But 1750 grams is light and does kind of rule out older 531 double butted but could still be either 531SL or 753 if it is Reynolds.

It was only SLX that was rifled wasn't it, at the base of the seat tube and in the steerer, I'm sure other Columbus wasn't.

Cheers
Neil


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:26 pm 
Old School Grand Master

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:55 pm
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Location: New Forest, UK
originalshinkicker wrote:
It was only SLX that was rifled wasn't it, at the base of the seat tube and in the steerer, I'm sure other Columbus wasn't.


According to the tubing tables in the Tony Oliver book, Columbus SLX, SPX and TSX all had rifling. SL does not.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 6:58 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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hamster wrote:
originalshinkicker wrote:
It was only SLX that was rifled wasn't it, at the base of the seat tube and in the steerer, I'm sure other Columbus wasn't.


According to the tubing tables in the Tony Oliver book, Columbus SLX, SPX and TSX all had rifling. SL does not.


I was keeping my reference about rifling to the early 80s which was mentioned. I thought TSX was later 80s, and SPX would probably be far too heavy for the weight quoted as it was a relatively thick tube. Having said that, SLX would probably be outside of that weight range too.

Even Columbus SL may be too heavy for that quoted weight as it was always just that little bit heavier that 531c

I would expect a standard Imperial 531c frame to come in at approx 1900 grams.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 7:13 pm 
Old School Grand Master

Joined: Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:55 pm
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Location: New Forest, UK
Did Langdale Lightweights have a 753 license? That might help narrow things.


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PostPosted: Mon Dec 19, 2016 8:24 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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Langdale used a lot of Columbus so my money would be on Columbus SL tubing. Is the frame black and red fade by any chance?


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