Fred Hellens elusive documentation - hellenic seatstays !

On the other side of the channel, we are trying to document the triple triangle design !

for the couragous in French
http://veloretrocourse.proboards.com/th ... bans-crois

but the 1923 date - "advertised" by Sheldon does not seem to be able to be substantiated by documentation or any pic of a Fred Hellens actual bicycle :shock:

We have a french patent from Louis Halotel in 1934 ( not to speak about the curved seattube which must have been an inspiration for Herse tandem )




but nothing earlier than that ! French bicycles with that design are existing from about 1935 and are still "alive" and running ( among them quite a few Routens)
English Hetchins or Thanet bikes are later

So we would appreciate any input about this "elusive Hellens avenue"

Thanks for the help from Frogland

Interesting how a specific year like 1923 can fall into folklore when there appears to be no documented evidence. I can't help but have you tried contacting the V-CC?

http://www.v-cc.org.uk/

There is a wealth of knowledge and a huge library and archive.

There's also a couple of people at the National Cycle Museum who may be able to help http://www.cyclemuseum.org.uk/. Although they are well connected with the V-CC so an enquiry with one may well be passed to the other.

I can't recall Hetchins doing this, but in the 1949/1952 era Ray Clark of Weston Super Mare produced a number of "Hellenic". I think they were bronze welded (fillet brazed) by that genius of the torch Bill Martin. His brazing flame was usually 6 to 8 inches long.

Keith

Fred Dean also built at least one frame (his own tourer) with this design.

Robbied196":3gxrlais said:

Interesting how a specific year like 1923 can fall into folklore when there appears to be no documented evidence. I can't help but have you tried contacting the V-CC?

http://www.v-cc.org.uk/

There is a wealth of knowledge and a huge library and archive.

There's also a couple of people at the National Cycle Museum who may be able to help http://www.cyclemuseum.org.uk/. Although they are well connected with the V-CC so an enquiry with one may well be passed to the other.

Click to expand...

Thanks
I have contacted the VCC and hope for an answer

Lets not Forget that Pollard also used hellenic design as well viewtopic.php?f=23&t=295179&hilit=Pollard

A passage I found on http://www.peterbrueggeman.com
Maybe Hilary Stone can shed some light on the matter...

Hilary Stone wrote a paper for the '93 International Cycle History Conference about the development of "Unorthodox Frames" in England. Some interesting points from the paper:
Fred Hellens offered his Hellenic seatstay design in 1923.

Granby and Selbach offered tapered main tubes in 1926.

The RTTC (Road Time Trials Council) in Feb. 1938 passed the requirement: "...neither shall the racer have the name of his machine or maker so prominently dsplayed that it appears in photographs in the press." They reasoned that if a top amateur was photographed riding a named frame, his amateur status was in doubt since the maker clearly stood to benefit from his efforts.

Most of the unorthodox designs debuted before 1938: Hetchins Vibrant rear triangle, Moorson Twin Tube, Grubb Twinlite, Bates Cantiflex/Diadrant frames.

No new unorthodox frames appeared during the time the ban was in effect (1938-1945). It was not until after the ban ceased to have meaning, with the post war resumption of a full calendar of time trials, that many more unorthodox frames appeared (Thanet, Ray Clarke, Alpex, Success, and Waller).

creindesign":1koknc10 said:

A passage I found on http://www.peterbrueggeman.com
Maybe Hilary Stone can shed some light on the matter...

Hilary Stone wrote a paper for the '93 International Cycle History Conference about the development of "Unorthodox Frames" in England. Some interesting points from the paper:
Fred Hellens offered his Hellenic seatstay design in 1923.

Click to expand...

Good tip
I have written to him.

For the moment this Fred Hellens story looks like a "myth"

So on which side of the channel is this idea born ?

Well to keep things in perspective, when you read Franck Berto's "the dancing chain", you realize everything had already been invented at the turn of the century ( the true turn : 1900 ! ) but most falled into oblivion !

Re:

If someone has an exemplar of "Cycling" 7th Jun 1923 , would not mind the scan of the pic :idea:

Thanks to VCC

"Dear Bruno

There is a photograph of the bicycle built by Fred Hellens of Catford, London in the issue of the weekly magazine Cycling for June 7th 1923.
This is picture is also reproduced the Book published by Roger Bugg and John Pinkerton Diamonds Weren't Always For Ever available from Dorothy Pinkerton, 522 Holly Lane, Erdington, Birmingham B24 9LY. It was listed at £20 plus p&P.

Yours sincerely

Andrew Millward
"

and video of 1924 at Herne Hill

Thanks to the veterancycleclublibrary

Video - H. E. Fuller wins the `Mile` at the Amateur Cycling Championships, Herne Hill, 18 August 1924.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UKTSnnl ... e=youtu.be




another video from 1923

http://www.britishpathe.com/video/cycling-championships

There you go.
Its always a learning curve.
I must admit this has been a very interesting thread to follow.
Thanks for sharing this search Bruno
All the best
Jamie