First it was Hamilton, then Heras and Landis and now Beltran

South Bound":1wbcccmb said:

Dwayne Chambers anybody?

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Served his time or deserves to suffer forever...?

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Suffer forever. I think all athletes caught should get a lifetime ban from competition and not just a few years.
All they'll do in the time in between bans, if not lifetime, is just clean up temporarily and find different substances to use to avoid dope tests.

al":1qz3xvky said:

So John, you think its just now that people are drawing the conclusion that Armstrong is a cheat?

I think you need to get out more!

Yes of course the fags reference was a little flip.

You seem to live in hope that Armstrong is not a cheat? I live in hope that he does the rite thing for cycling and comes clean before he is exsposed.

Al.

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Clearly I should bow to your superior cycling knowledge Al

I was under the impression a man was innocent until proven guilty. Sure, the weight of implication is Armstrong doped but importantly (for me at least) he was the most tested athelte on the planet and other than some half-cocked French press stories never tested positive. Although I would imagine a man of your means has absolute proof. Care to share it?

You clealry aren't a student of cycling (or any other sport), maybe you should read up on the history of performance enchancers and the gray areas between right, wrong, legal and illegal. You'll probably find some of your 'sporting heros' aren't quite whiter than white.

As for your half baked comment he should come clean - well that's clearly wrong. If it came out he did it would destroy the sport in the eyes of the public - most people have heard of Armstrong, few have heard Manuel Beltram.

If people are going to jump to the conclusion that Armstrong must have cheated because other members of his team have, then best declare big mig a cheat at the same time. Banesto/Reynolds hardly have an impecable record when it comes to drug use.

I'm with John on this one, Armstrong (or mig for that matter) never failed a drug test in or out of competition which for me says a lot more than some story in a french paper.

In the seven years that Armstrong won the Tour, not on a single occasion did he say he was not taking drugs.Nor did he take a stand on the whole issue.

In my eyes the fact that Armstrong would not brake his relationship with Dr Michele Ferrari. Must raise an eyebrow in the most ardent Armstrong supporter?

Also you have cited the fact that he never tested positive, does this mean that Basso should be allowed to ride the Tour?

I will give a few names and you have to fill in the missing link.

Riis
Zabel
Aldag
Most of Festina 1998...

Al.

Oh my god!!!!

Before i leave this subject for good, i would like to tell you a funny little story.

As i was responding to one of Johns patronising and witty replies, my mrs was reading over my shoulder.
Her words to me were, And does he think the moon is made of cheese!

Cheers,Al

al":asog792j said:

In the seven years that Armstrong won the Tour, not on a single occasion did he say he was not taking drugs.Nor did he take a stand on the whole issue.

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I'm sure Lance has not commented or taken a stand on a whole number of subjects, so what? I've never stood up in front of my family and declared that I don't like to eat worms, nor have I taken a stand on the subject. Does that mean that secretly I eat worms?

What would the reaction have been if at the end of every tour, Armstrong stood up and said "I'm not taking drugs you know.". Suspicion?

As it happens, I'm not that bothered if cyclists in the tour do drugs or not. I don't really care if Armstrong did or not. Even doped, to win the tour as many times as he did is a hell of an achievement. You can't argue that he had an unfair advantage because he was doing drugs as it appears that much of the pack when he was riding were also doping anyway

al":1ywul261 said:

In my eyes the fact that Armstrong would not brake his relationship with Dr Michele Ferrari. Must raise an eyebrow in the most ardent Armstrong supporter?

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Indeed. As I've said above the weight of evidence the he did is strong. But as myself and g_baz mention

g_baz":1ywul261 said:

Armstrong (or mig for that matter) never failed a drug test in or out of competition which for me says a lot more than some story in a french paper.

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al":1ywul261 said:

Also you have cited the fact that he never tested positive, does this mean that Basso should be allowed to ride the Tour?

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Think the context is somewhat different on this one - not really comparable is it? Basso was sucked into Peurto.

al":1ywul261 said:

I will give a few names and you have to fill in the missing link.

Riis
Zabel
Aldag
Most of Festina 1998...

Al.

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Same argument as before Al. Yes doping was prevelant in the pro peleton throughout the 80s, 90s and certainly before. Yes the riders above doped. So did numerous other favourites. Pantani, Ullrich, Olano, Vino, Heras, Delgado, Landis...the list in endless. Maybe I'm being naive but as I've mentioned before all the riders above were caught or doped before effective tests for EPO. Armstrong never was. At then end of the day my argument maybe moot. Afaik the French authorites have good stocks of Armstrongs sample's - I'm sure if they can nail him for something they will If they knock enough people out maybe they can give a victory to a clean, deserving French rider like Virenque....oh, hold on

al":1mx6ivb1 said:

As i was responding to one of Johns patronising and witty replies, my mrs was reading over my shoulder.
Her words to me were, And does he think the moon is made of cheese!

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Well, well. Enter Stephen Fry with a witty riposte of his own
Glad you've found a soulmate in another cycling expert

I am not going to respond anymore on this subject you will be glad to hear.

But i must ask John why he makes things so personal?

I always try and show respect to all users of this forum,and hope i don't ever over step the mark.
The reason this forum is always a draw to me is its mix of views.
We all have different views thank goodness! but i really do not see the need to belittle or try and get one over on anybody.

Yes i am an oppinionated nut,but i always try and keep things light and would like to be shown a little bit of respect by other users.

Free speech should be open to all,not just the few!

All the best,all. Al.

al":36mzmf82 said:

I am not going to respond anymore on this subject you will be glad to hear.

But i must ask John why he makes things so personal?

I always try and show respect to all users of this forum,and hope i don't ever over step the mark.
The reason this forum is always a draw to me is its mix of views.
We all have different views thank goodness! but i really do not see the need to belittle or try and get one over on anybody.

Yes i am an oppinionated nut,but i always try and keep things light and would like to be shown a little bit of respect by other users.

Free speech should be open to all,not just the few!

All the best,all. Al.

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It's a forum, just as you're entitled to your opinion bear in mind I'm entitled to mine. If we all agreed on everything how dull would this place be (it'd be full of Konas too ).
Nothing was intended to be personal from here. Did you intended your snipes to be so? Maybe you should read through your posts again and it might help put some of my responses to which you've clearly taken offence into context.

cheers

John