BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote Now

We_are_Stevo · Jul 27, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

Surly anyone can scroll down a list of photo's and pick out one they like the look of more than the others?

I do just that all the time; I have no interest whatsoever in owning any of the bikes that float peoples' proverbial boats on here, but that doesn't stop me from voting for the bike that catches my eye the most. I can still appreciate the time and effort that has gone into any given build, and even when there is a whole list to choose from as in BoTM it is not difficult to find something you like.

Consequently I have often voted for some superb builds by certain members who have made the flimsiest of veiled comments that they actually can't stand me, based on my oft' times bluntly outspoken stance on any given subject, even though they don't even know me!

That's why I find it a little disappointing that such a small minority (in all due probability the same people every month) actually bother to vote; even BoTY garnering less than 300 votes...

...like I said earlier, next time I'm going to stick a matching Flite and Oury grips on a Penny Farthing and enter that, old tat being as de rigueur as it obviously is!

Tongue-in-cheek
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tongue-in-cheek is a phrase used as a figure of speech to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.

Just so we're clear on that!

nausea · Jul 27, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

OK - I'm going to buck the trend and just say which bike I like best

The Clockwork and Formula I love also, but it's Lavadome's P7 because...

a) I'm a shamelessly biased fellow P7 rider
b) I like the effort made to include USE, Hope, Middleburn and Pace parts to add to the Brit factor

videojetman · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

It would have been easy this month if it had been dog of the month as i love dogs,
But i voted for stocko's clockwork because its my favourite bike.
B.O.T.M. seems to be a time for certain members to express their very personal opinions,
Which is fair enough, but when it becomes personal, thats what spoils it.
The only 2 rules in B.O.T.M. should be.
1. If you like the bike vote for it,
2. If you don't like the bike, don't vote for it.
Simples.

P.s. if there is ever a dog of the month contest, mr panda's dog has my vote.

sinnerman · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

(one voters experience expressed and nothing more)

The confusion that arises over where a bike is made here in the UK still surprises me.

It truly shows that the presumption of being handbuilt in England making it a better bike, was an important factor to many consumers in the early days of the U.K mountain bike scene. And it did in fact bolster sales.

Whilst windsurfers and others saw an opportunity, they didn't have the setup/skills to build their own frames, not wanting to miss the boat, the far east was the first stop. It was no wonder it inevitably upset some of the small UK frame builders that had enjoyed success in the earlier part of the 80's, these guys jumping on the bandwagon claiming their bikes were handbuilt in the UK (when in truth Hand Assembled was far more accurate).

Given as a nation of Frame builders, (reaching hundreds in previous part of the last century, especially around the middle country)
It being "Handbuilt in England" genuinely did play a big part on how Quality was viewed.

Muddy fox, didnt rely on it as a selling tool. (by far was the cleverest image/marketing i had ever seen.)

Every frame Orange Produced was made Overseas and painted here. Even the few Orange Formulas Produced were not made by them but farmed out to small English frame builders and had their decals added. Ever mindful of that need to be seen to be Hand built in England, and to compete with the highest respected builders such as Roberts and Yates etc. The buying public little aware that they may actually be riding a Yates Frame with Orange decals.

Image was Everything and it sold bikes.....but there was still that worry that if it didn't have Handbuilt in Halifax on it.....?

Inevitably the worries of some of the smaller Frame builders here in the UK were born out, and it worked.

I just noticed a post on a current thread, posted in 2010 and it was still a common place misunderstanding. The great marketing machine had done its job.

Saracen, like many did in the early days used companies to build its frames here in the UK, as well as having success in the press with English riders overcoming massive obstacles to climb Real Mountains with their bikes, both fantastic marketing tools.

By the time the boom had hit big time, and Far east Imports baring American Brand names such as Marin, Specialized, GT etc were flooding in, Saracen needed to increase Output to keep up with both competition and Sales demand.

Production from the far east was sought, but with the issues that Orange and others had had with quality control and not wishing to loose the sales advantages of the 'Handbuilt in England' that was seen to bring with it.

All imported frames were finished by hand here in the U.K as Pete has said, braze ones were added, frames checked, prepared etc then they were powder coated and then assembled, affording a far better build quality fit and finish over its competitors and still enabling them to say to a degree "Handbuilt in England".

Later bikes like the Formula 1 Carbon frames were additionally incorporated into the range as a flagship model spec'd differently to that of the early F1s naturally Handbuilt from carbon here in the UK and Bearing the Saracen name.

So popular did the brand become, Halfords wanted to sell the brand on its UK shop floors, Saracen conscious that this might well devalue the brand image, but reluctant to loose market sales, Saracen decided to sell a range of four bikes through the Halfords network, named Saracen Eiger. These were available on shop floors, and in all honesty they differed only in name to the equivalent model in the current range, all other models were available but only to order. Given the track record of Saracens Quality control and Sales, A deal was done to have a similar product for the higher range of Carreras (halfords Own brand name). It worked.

The main difference between the Orange and Saracen brand to my mind in those early days came simply down to Quality control. Whilst to a degree both brands were finished here in the UK, one was far closer to a true Handbuilt Bike than the Other. Image wise Orange to my mind won hands Down, for Fit and Finish reliability it was Saracen.

doctor-bond · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

The Fox Saracen content at least allows some of the sweet early bikes to get their box crowns and long stays aired. Nice to see the S&G Araya especially.

For the record, anyone know who built the Kili Flyer Comp and where? It looks like a quality piece.

drcarlos · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

doctor-bond":31zy1dfz said:
The Fox Saracen content at least allows some of the sweet early bikes to get their box crowns and long stays aired. Nice to see the S&G Araya especially.

For the record, anyone know who built the Kili Flyer Comp and where? It looks like a quality piece.

Would the lugged 531 Conquest from the 89-90 catalogue have actually been built here in the UK? It seems far too traditional for it to have been far east made, don't think we have any of those on here.
I assumed that Saracen continued to have bikes built here in the UK until the 90's and like everyone else moved then because of my Kili being built here, was it just the Reynolds bikes that were built here?

Carl.

Mr Panda · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

Very relevant - and I believe there's another key issue, apart from perceived quality, which affects buying patterns - emotion

Some people like the idea of riding (or indeed buying/owning) anything made locally to them - a sort of display of patriotism or local pride if you like, stemming back to days when the UK actually employed people (many people) in a manufacturing industry with a respected worldwide market.

I'm refurbishing a Flying Scot roadbike because it was made in Glasgow a few miles from where I grew up. No other reason really - a decent bike yes, but in reality probably not much "better" than other contemporary frames. If I'm honest I will say I prefer to own European equipment rather than Far Eastern, but my household inevitably abounds with both.

I have Norton and Triumph motorcycles plus Kawasakis and Hondas, the latter being far superior in most respects. However the breadth of my grin when on the Norton/Triumph is what it's all about for me

I feel the same "grin factor" with bicycles and was disappointed years ago when I learned that brands such as Saracen and Orange were made abroad, but it was simple economics for the companies concerned. They're fine bikes.

I also have a 1967 Land Rover in preference to a Toyota Hilux :facepalm:

My dog now thinks he rules the roost BTW.

sinnerman":3j9i5bst said:
(one voters experience expressed and nothing more)

The confusion that arises over where a bike is made here in the UK still surprises me.

It truly shows that the presumption of being handbuilt in England making it a better bike, was an important factor to many consumers in the early days of the U.K mountain bike scene. And it did in fact bolster sales.

Whilst windsurfers and others saw an opportunity, they didn't have the setup/skills to build their own frames, not wanting to miss the boat, the far east was the first stop. It was no wonder it inevitably upset some of the small UK frame builders that had enjoyed success in the earlier part of the 80's, these guys jumping on the bandwagon claiming their bikes were handbuilt in the UK (when in truth Hand Assembled was far more accurate).

Given as a nation of Frame builders, (reaching hundreds in previous part of the last century, especially around the middle country)
It being "Handbuilt in England" genuinely did play a big part on how Quality was viewed.

Muddy fox, didnt rely on it as a selling tool. (by far was the cleverest image/marketing i had ever seen.)

Every frame Orange Produced was made Overseas and painted here. Even the few Orange Formulas Produced were not made by them but farmed out to small English frame builders and had their decals added. Ever mindful of that need to be seen to be Hand built in England, and to compete with the highest respected builders such as Roberts and Yates etc. The buying public little aware that they may actually be riding a Yates Frame with Orange decals.

Image was Everything and it sold bikes.....but there was still that worry that if it didn't have Handbuilt in Halifax on it.....?

Inevitably the worries of some of the smaller Frame builders here in the UK were born out, and it worked.

I just noticed a post on a current thread, posted in 2010 and it was still a common place misunderstanding. The great marketing machine had done its job.

Saracen, like many did in the early days used companies to build its frames here in the UK, as well as having success in the press with English riders overcoming massive obstacles to climb Real Mountains with their bikes, both fantastic marketing tools.

By the time the boom had hit big time, and Far east Imports baring American Brand names such as Marin, Specialized, GT etc were flooding in, Saracen needed to increase Output to keep up with both competition and Sales demand.

Production from the far east was sought, but with the issues that Orange and others had had with quality control and not wishing to loose the sales advantages of the 'Handbuilt in England' that was seen to bring with it.

All imported frames were finished by hand here in the U.K as Pete has said, braze ones were added, frames checked, prepared etc then they were powder coated and then assembled, affording a far better build quality fit and finish over its competitors and still enabling them to say to a degree "Handbuilt in England".

Later bikes like the Formula 1 Carbon frames were additionally incorporated into the range as a flagship model spec'd differently to that of the early F1s naturally Handbuilt from carbon here in the UK and Bearing the Saracen name.

So popular did the brand become, Halfords wanted to sell the brand on its UK shop floors, Saracen conscious that this might well devalue the brand image, but reluctant to loose market sales, Saracen decided to sell a range of four bikes through the Halfords network, named Saracen Eiger. These were available on shop floors, and in all honesty they differed only in name to the equivalent model in the current range, all other models were available but only to order. Given the track record of Saracens Quality control and Sales, A deal was done to have a similar product for the higher range of Carreras (halfords Own brand name). It worked.

The main difference between the Orange and Saracen brand to my mind in those early days came simply down to Quality control. Whilst to a degree both brands were finished here in the UK, one was far closer to a true Handbuilt Bike than the Other. Image wise Orange to my mind won hands Down, for Fit and Finish reliability it was Saracen.

Archemist · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

Mr Panda":3vcolmgl said:
I have Norton and Triumph motorcycles plus Kawasakis and Hondas, the latter being far superior in most respects. However the breadth of my grin when on the Norton/Triumph is what it's all about for me

There's a difference isn't there - in the 80's Japan were the world leaders in mass produced quality. They were so good they killed their own economy.

Taiwanese and mainland China bikes were an unknown, marketing was hardly likely to raise this as a selling point, with the passing of time it's clear that the majority of the brands had sufficient quality control for them still to be together 20+ years later.

At the time however I was proud that my original courier was (frame) built in Japan. It equated with the Civic GTi I also drove, the Marantz CD player I adored.

My '89 Team Pro is an Araya built aluminium frame, it is handmade and finished, it was certainly not painted by a robot. It's Japanese and to me relatively exotic and boutique. I wouldn't love it more if Barry from Bognor had made it.

Don't get me wrong I love the Brit frame builders, and maybe one day I'll get one but I guarantee it'll only run if I put 90%+ Japanese kit on it! (Yep I know CK, Paul's, Mavic, of course it can be done...

).

P.s. series landrovers are always cool and the transport of choice of all collies (and related breeds) when they can't get a ride "head-out" in an MG Midget.

legrandefromage · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

Your CD player would have been Dutch in the 1980's

Archemist · Jul 28, 2013

Re: BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote No

legrandefromage":26l4lx55 said:
Your CD player would have been Dutch in the 1980's

Agreed philips owned marantz in the 80's but my cd50 was made of japanese componentry (and dutch philips cd hardware), it was probably "assembled" in belgium (though I've certainly seen some that had the japanese 'passed' stickers on). i didn't bother with the uk tuned se model as my poor lugs couldn't tell the difference on demo

.

Your Lecson stuff is wonderful

and back to the bikes...

BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote Now

BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote Now

We_are_Stevo's 1992 Saracen Kili Wot

nevadasmith's 1989 Orange Formula

The History Man's 1997 Muddy Fox Rock N Roll TEAM

Mr Panda's 1995 Orange P7

Legrandefromage's - 1992 Saracen Kili Racer

Andyz's 1990 Muddy Fox Courier Comp

Gravy Monster's 1989 Saracen Trekker Competition UU

Secret_Squirrels 93 Vit T

lord GT's 1992 Sarcen Kili Pro

Boscarn's 1996 Saracen Kili Pro

mrkawasaki's Orange Vitamin T2

Brocklanders 1989 Saracen Tufftrax

Stocko's 1993 Orange Clockwork

1997BlackC5's 1996 Saracen Rufftrax

drcarlos' 1989 Muddy Fox Courier Comp

stanny's 1985 Saracen Conquest

MADB's 1984 S&G Araya Muddy Fox

chrisv40's 1993 Saracen Traverse

Matthews' Muddy Fox Alu Pro

xxnick1975's Saracen City Bike

91lavadome's 1996 ORANGE p7

minorlegend's Orange Clockwork

iscervo's 1992 Muddy Fox Alu Xtr Twinshock

Rodrigues' 1989 Saracen Kili Flyer Comp

We_are_Stevo

Old School Grand Master

nausea

Retro Guru

videojetman

sinnerman

doctor-bond

drcarlos

Mr Panda

Archemist

legrandefromage

Archemist

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