Mandela. Terrorist Or Freedom Fighter?

FMJ":1bhjox3v said:

Jesus was a terrorist. Just ask any Roman.

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That's if the 4th Century Council of Nicaea and the subsequent 17th Century reworking to suit the then Powers-that-were are to be believed...

...I'm with the Gospel of Thomas on that one.

velomaniac":2nhjrcpa said:

Hate they can do all they like but the black majority has the power now and would squash them like a tick !

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You mean like they did in Zimbabwe, where they're now starving and suffering hyper inflation?

And there is no 'black' majority. Colour means little to the blacks. Instead they have tribalism, Zulu, Mashona, Xhosha etc. Mandela is Xhosha, who are a minority tribe, so when he was President he did not represent the majority. Biggest tribe is Zulu, and Jacob Zuma is himself of that clan, but even they aren't sufficiently numerous to forma majority.

So there isn't and never has been an ethnic majority in Government in South Africa, and both whites and black remember how Zimbabwe turns out. No group is in a position to squash any other and survive the long term consequences of such an action.

Chopper1192":2w4bpimo said:

What about all the largely black, largely nothing to do with the government victims, that his organisation murdered maimed in order to try and force co-operation? For the most part it was innocent blacks that got the butt end of the ANCs military struggle. How is that the act of a freedom fighter?

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Wasn't Mandela in jail while this was happening?

He was not instrumental in the fall of apartheid. That was inevitable, utterly unsustainable, and collapsed of its own inertia, in much the same way communism in the USSR did.

The ANC and Mandela had nothing to do with that, but due to their position as the dominant political force - a dominance built on ciolence against their own people, with financial, political and ideological assistance from communist Russia, keen to exert influence in such a strategically located country - and too up the mantle by default, as 4 decades of violence from the ANC had effectively suppressed any other legitimate political rivalry.

So I ask you, when they weren't beating and killing blacks to get them to toe the line, exactly what did the ANC and Mandela do to bring about the fall of apartheid?

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You've forgotten

1. Mandela did provide a reassuring face for the Boers to hand power to; this probably did ease the transition - and he personally lived up to his promise of moderation

2. He's the one person who could have done something about Zimbawe through his influence in the OAS and West, and he didn't. A lot of people have died who might not have done if he had acted. Instead, he expressed "deep sadnessx" about "the electoral chaos" - but didn't as much condemn the dictator who is destroying the country and murdering thousands of people every moth through starvation.

3. He's been no use against subsequent ANC corruption

Chopper1192":14035sur said:

velomaniac":14035sur said:

Hate they can do all they like but the black majority has the power now and would squash them like a tick !

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You mean like they did in Zimbabwe, where they're now starving and suffering hyper inflation?

And there is no 'black' majority. Colour means little to the blacks. Instead they have tribalism, Zulu, Mashona, Xhosha etc.

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That's not really correct. Blacks in South Africa have colour ***and*** tribal identity. Just like some Southerners in the USA can be ardently American and still believe all Northerners are crooks and all Californians perverts.

And I have heard of Yorkshiremen who admit that the place is inside some other country that they have some sort of loyalty to...

Come to think of - your sig does imply that you were in the British Army, which is one of the most tribal organizations in the world. But you'd still consider a Para one of your own kind when compared to, umm, a member of the Swiss Navy.

1. I hadn't forgotten.

2. Harold Wilson is the one person who could've done something about Zimbabwe by not imposing sanctions when Ian Smith declared UDI when it was Rhodesia. As was usual for the 60's, colonial Britain got it wrong.

3. The corruption is endemic. Zuma was the ANC s head of intelligence and used his position to ruthlessly crush opponents, and there's many who suggest the links formed and information gathered during this period are what got him off rape and corruption charges. He could teach Berlusconi a thing or two about being bent, so your spot on there.

And tribalism aces race there to a massive degree, to the point where race is almost unimportant to most black south's Africans. They're Zulu or Mashona (or whatever) first, and wouldn't piss on each other if they were on fire. It's the biggest driver of inter-group rivalry by a considerable degree. They've totally different backgrounds, not united ethnically or culturally.

PurpleFrog":3oyw8rwj said:

Come to think of - your sig does imply that you were in the British Army, which is one of the most tribal organizations in the world. But you'd still consider a Para one of your own kind when compared to, umm, a member of the Swiss Navy.

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Not 'Tribal...'

...'Feudal'

But works on the same principal as the the Bedouin...

...'Me against my brother; my Brother and I against my Cousin; my Brother, my Cousin and I against my Uncle; my Family and I against our enemies.'

The Pashtun have their own version.

Never did go in for all that 'Crap Hat' stuff myself, but Aldershot of a Saturday night could be a little 'tense' at times!

Chopper1192":85vurhpu said:

You've forgotten

1. Mandela did provide a reassuring face for the Boers to hand power to; this probably did ease the transition - and he personally lived up to his promise of moderation

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1. I hadn't forgotten.

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Ok: you hadn't forgotten; you just didn't bother mentioning it because..?

2. Harold Wilson is the one person who could've done something about Zimbabwe by not imposing sanctions when Ian Smith declared UDI when it was Rhodesia. As was usual for the 60's, colonial Britain got it wrong.

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The only way to prevent Mugabe from being an crook in 2013 is to say "White Power, Yeah!" 40 years earlier????

3. The corruption is endemic. Zuma was the ANC s head of intelligence and used his position to ruthlessly crush opponents, and there's many who suggest the links formed and information gathered during this period are what got him off rape and corruption charges. He could teach Berlusconi a thing or two about being bent, so your spot on there.

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As I remember a big problem is that Mrs M. was rather bent and he had considerable guilt about being too busy being imprisoned to make it home nights, so he moved the bar down for her... then everyone else went over to.

And tribalism aces race there to a massive degree, to the point where race is almost unimportant to most black south's Africans. They're Zulu or Mashona (or whatever) first, and wouldn't piss on each other if they were on fire.

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Possibly. If you've got any sources I'd be interested.

We_are_Stevo":3ibeq4yu said:

PurpleFrog":3ibeq4yu said:

Come to think of - your sig does imply that you were in the British Army, which is one of the most tribal organizations in the world. But you'd still consider a Para one of your own kind when compared to, umm, a member of the Swiss Navy.

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Not 'Tribal...'

...'Feudal'

But works on the same principal as the the Bedouin...

...'Me against my brother; my Brother and I against my Cousin; my Brother, my Cousin and I against my Uncle; my Family and I against our enemies.'

The Pashtun have their own version.

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Yes, but they don't have the Biscuit Brown.

..Is it true that Brown has been removed from Army ration packs? I thought it was one of the most delicious things on earth - the only time I ever contemplated joining the Army was when I had daydreams about being able to eat them for free all day.

Never did go in for all that 'Crap Hat' stuff myself, but Aldershot of a Saturday night could be a little 'tense' at times!

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It always amuses me when people want to "sort out" football hooligans by putting them in the Army...

PurpleFrog":36ud2ofu said:

And tribalism aces race there to a massive degree, to the point where race is almost unimportant to most black south's Africans. They're Zulu or Mashona (or whatever) first, and wouldn't piss on each other if they were on fire.

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Possibly. If you've got any sources I'd be interested.

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When you are do not have the knowledge of all the pertinent details you'd do well not to advertise your own ignorance...

We_are_Stevo":s5yf60vg said:

PurpleFrog":s5yf60vg said:

And tribalism aces race there to a massive degree, to the point where race is almost unimportant to most black south's Africans. They're Zulu or Mashona (or whatever) first, and wouldn't piss on each other if they were on fire.

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Possibly. If you've got any sources I'd be interested.

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When you are do not have the knowledge of all the pertinent details you'd do well not to advertise your own ignorance...

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Nope. A stupid person is one who would rather stay ignorant than ask questions.

I've read quite a bit about South Africa and talked to South Africans. But if someone says that something I thought was correct is wrong, then I'm open to the possibility of their being right. Or wrong. But I won't waste time bs-ing.

(Or did I miss some irony there - like an implication that some people here do bs when they should be asking stuff?)