yeah I wasn't very clear really !

I can't tell if it was my original bike, the saddle was the same (this was an unusual assos "unicantor" type with about 100 hand drilled holes in it, very very unique), as were the forks, stem and bars etc etc, the only differance was that the original I sold the first time had Ken Bird decals on it, I'm 95% sure it was the same bike I bought back as an Alec Bird , although I never made a note of any numbers so I really can't be 100% sure.
I was sure enough in 2007 to part with cash

I hope that makes sense

if it wasn't the same bike then I bought an alec bird with sloping crown forks in 2005ish

if it was the same bike then I bought it as a resprayed carlton with Ken Bird decals on it in 1988 solld it in 1996 and bought it back 10 years later resprayed with Alec bird decals on it


I hope that makes sense !!
I can post a pic of the saddle, and differant shots of the bike from 2006/7 if you like

Hi...if you have any more pics it would be really good.

It would be odd for you to sell a frame which has some unusual kit on it and get a different frame but get all the same bits back....and it is not uncommon for someone to get a favourite frame resprayed.....Do you remember the frame number of your original frame....ie Ken Bird [KBs frames were made by Alec?...So does 529.....ring any bells???

I've found an email address for Simon Bird....Ken's father..so sent him
an email.

Cheers.....Leon

I'll post a pic of the orig seat up when I find/take one
also I've just checked and I bought it in 2003

Thanks for that....pictures are most appreciated.

Any recollection on the frame number?....I can understand if you don't!

One little question about the rear brake bridge....there is a little hole..that i thought someone was going to drill a hole for a rear brake but one of the above pics give the impression the little hole has something to do with a rear mudguard...ie it attaches to the frame at that point...is that correct?

Again apologies for the further questions...but is this correct.

You had a frame that was as far as you knew was a Carlton track frame.....did it any time have Carlton decals [did it have a 531 DB decal and was it the type with 531 at a diagonal or the more modern type?].....and you had it resprayed flam blue by Ken Bird [you were living in Bromley close to his shop] or had it KB decals when you bought in 1988?......you then sold it.....you bought a frame 10 years later with a virtually identical saddle and seatpost [both unusual].....i take it you didn't buy it back from Steve...but from someone who had moved to Devon and had done the same commute from Bromley to WC1....only this time....it was painted again [?] and had Alec Bird decals.....is that how it happened?

This is complicated.....but appreciate your assistance...cheers.....Leon

this is properly confusing

when I bought it for the first time is was blue (the same as in the pics) but with Ken Bird decals on it, I bought it from the old bike shop in Tylney rd, bromley and the guy there told me it was actually a carlton that had been refinished, so it may or may have not been, I remember a couple of people saying it was carlton, and what with the lugs being capella ! at the time lots of frames were rebranded by the shops that resprayed them so it seemed to all fit. I took it as a carlton sprayed by (and badged up as a) ken bird, it would also have been worth more as a "new" ken bird rather than an "old" carlton


no idea on frame numbers I'm afraid, I wouldn't have even looked, old track iron was worthless back then, no one really wanted them and no one would have ever nicked it so I never bothered making a note ( I would now though !)

there was no hole in the brake bridge, the "mudguard" in pics is an old venicion blind kept there with the block of wood you can see in the photo, only way to go with no bridge hole for proper mounting.

can't remember which 531 decal it had I'm afraid, like i say, it was at the time a "cheap" training hack.

so to recap
bought and then sold as
blue "ken bird" the first time
blue "Alec bird" the second
but always belived to be an older carlton by me, but with no proof etc

no, the guy I bought it from the second time wasn't the guy I sold it to the first (I knew the first bloke)

obviously all this assumes that it was the same bike !!!
I'm sure the numbers must be look upable somewhere,

Thanks again...it is getting clearer.....when you bought the frame for the first time...was it from Ken Bird's shop?.....When you bought 'it' for the second time.....it had the same disctinctive Unicantor saddle? Same distinctive Cinelli stem [as in these pics]? And clearly the Capella lugs...but did your first frame with ken Bird also have fastback rear stays as there is with the second frame?

You mention in 2005 on the Retrobike thread that the tubing was '531 Competition'?

Love the story about the make do rear mudguard....as someone has drilled a little hole in the brake bridge......guess to make a hole for a brake and then decided not to!

If your first frame and 2nd frame both have the Capella lugs and and fastback stays and and came with the distinctive saddle/stem that you knew so well.....it must be your frame and on the balance of probabilities must be a Carlton of some sorts.....could be a rogue variant...or even a Raleigh-Carlton of some sort.....demo model?

Cheers again.....nearly there......a few more answers and i'll leave you alone.....but interesting that these frames before the 'fixie' craze was as 'cheap as chips'......the frame cost me £230!.....If it is a Carlton.....this winter.....i might get it resprayed as a Carlton..with decals and a headbadge!

Best wishes.........Leon

yeah the frame had the fastback stays etc , it was identical, I'd have assumed it wasn't the same bike otherwise
the the seat isn;t the one in the pics, (it's still in my shed somewhere) neither is is the stem (thats an old cinelli road stem) it had a cinelli track stem , everything apart from the wheels/pedals were the same the second time I bought it.

I never really thought about if it was 531 or 531c, and I never got the bike down to frame only to weigh it. the 531C decal was under the lacquer, which I assumed was done by Ken Birds, I used to go there sometimes as I went to/from work via Penge / Crystal Palace / Herne Hill now and then, He always struck me as straight down the line sort of bloke (a spade is a spade) so i assumed it was 531c if thats what he'd labeled it as , I didn't buy the bike there though, it came from the bike shop (can't remember the name of it) in Tylney Rd. Bromley, they did servicing and kids bikes mainly but alway quite cheap The fact that he sold it to me as an old Carlton resprayed by Ken Bird speaks volumes as it would have been worth more money as a newer Ken Bird back then, if I were putting money on it I'd still say it's a Carlton, unless someone at Ken Birds gave me good reason to think otherwise.
as an unrelated footnote I did buy a "written off" carlton road frame with head-badge and undamaged chrome forks with eyes the second time I owned it as I did contemplate restoring it . but it was never going to be the right size, which is why I sold it

I suppose it could be a demo model but if i were refinishing it now I'd try to find some pics/frame number info of the old "house/club/rental" bikes from Herne Hill as I think they were Carltons (or maybe Raleigh) and probably had weird numbers on !! the lugs maybe a bit too fancy. who knows

I'm quite jealous really as think it's quite nice to know the history of what your riding

Thanks for all your input....i'm going to send all the pics to Dave Marsh [ex Carlton] and i'll tell you what he says.....but i'm fairly sure it is a Carlton variant.....and as you say maybe a demo....or a Raleigh-Carlton one off....and perhaps might have been more valuable than a new KB frame?.......What is the odds of selling something in London and buying it back about 10 years later in Devon...as i am fairly certain it is one and the same frame...uncanny!

If i have some money...this winter or next....i would get the frame redone in Carlton colours with a Carlton metal headtube and restore her to former and maybe original glory...but you never know...might be more twists and turns in this story yet.....i will let you know what Dave says about the frame.

Hi Guys,

Just joined this forum, some great looking Birds there

I have a fixie Alec Bird track frame (It was very said, see pictures)

The frame was built by Alec for my father when he did some work on his house boat.
It wasnt finished and sat in my dads garage for over 25 years waiting to be finished.

I lost my father in 2004 and only now when my mum started to clean out dads garage (Yes we work slow ) I decided to get the frame finished off.

I took the frame down to Colour Tech in Crayford and Dave at colour Tech had ron cooper finish of the work that Alec Started in the mid-80's

I am going to keep it original but asked Dave and ron to fit it out for a back break (I fell off a fixie and damaged myself very badly).

Anyway yesterday Dave phoned me to say the frame was ready for some paint, so next week I am off to decide what colour to paint it

My dad liked blues and had a lovely blue R.O Harrison when I was a kid, so blue the frame will be.

Dave keeps in touch with Alec, and I recently heard that Alec has been in hospital for a while with heart problems.
He had to be defibulated.
He is now back home, but not 100%.

Alec and Ken's frame building of light weights was superb and there finish were second to none.

Over the time my dad had some quite special bikes (All track fixies).
Here are some of the bike makers dad had.
R.O Harrison
Bill Philbrook
Carpenter
and the Bird.

I intend to fit the bird with all Campag, but due to a little daughter being born its going to take me a while to get her on the road.

More pictures when I go and choose the blue, and more when finished.

Great thread this

Great thread, and look forward to hearing about the next chapter of another Bird bike. Whilst we're on the subject of feathered friends I'm still looking for a Barry Chick, size 50cm if anyone has one hanging around

Hi, I've just checked the lugs on classic lightweights site and they are "Carlton Capella" lugs. There is also a Carlton site to help with further ID.

rergards
dave s

Still dont know how to attach a picture !

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/y ... directlink

My Alec Bird frame has Campag Lugs.

Well I swung by colour tech today to catch up with Dave and the progress of my Bird.
And I can report that she is now looking superb.

Ron did the number on the rear end.
The frame has been shot blasted, cleaned up and primed.
See photos https://picasaweb.google.com/1072260838 ... meRestore#

I must say that I am very excited about this one.

I did select my finish colour, being a light blue or RAL5012 all over.
With some of Alec's decals and world champ stripes either side of the decals on the down tube.

Hopefully it wont be too much longer, but she has sat unfinished in dads garage for nearly 3 decades so I am sure a few more weeks won't hurt.

Now to look for some campagnolo super record group set for her.

More soon.

TTFN

Jon

Wow, what a lovely Job Dave at ColourTech has done.
The frame looks superb finished in light blue with black Alec Bird Decals and World Champ Stripes.

It looks stunning

Really pleased with the outcome !

Cheers Dave.

Now time to build it up.
I'm tempted to skip the retro group set and go for modern gear.
Both FSA and Campagnolo Pista's looks nice.
The black FSA crank set looks really nice http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=35758

With I guess the FSA ISIS Bottom Bracket http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Mode ... elID=12755

Pictures are uploading!

done, but some are repeated
Lovely frame
https://picasaweb.google.com/1072260838 ... ameRestore