Some help please re: raleigh 1977 frame looking more 1987
- Thread starter Lazarus
- Start date
fiks said:Raleigh "653 Race", bought from Geoffrey Butler in London in the late 80s.
You read my post from this morning then...Geoffrey Butler Cycles (Croydon, Surrey actually*) were my LBS for many years: walked/rode past the shop twice a day to school for 8+ years.
Roadking.
*a bit pedantic, I know. A weakness, like my thirst for perfection inherited from my Father.
Gentlemen , "I can't thank you all enough for this mogadon of info" this is what good forums are, 1 guy needs help, many come 
All this info now ties into what the seller told me and I can piece together its history and correct dates etc.
This bike has come from 1 guy (too small to ride her) who never rode her, who got it from the original owner. Her condition really is top quality, but moreover she rides like a 753, smooth as silk. The only problem I have now is " I've fall in love with it already " :?
Bought her for some parts, wheels Mavic501 hubs as NOS on MA40rims, and a white San Marco Rolls saddle. Gave her a test run (fatal I know) and realised she was pure class. Now with this info it looks like she'll have to nestle in along side my others.
Will post some more pics, and perhaps we can discuss her future more (and her past). She has done LEJOG and came with a box of spares (to die for). Whoever owned this liked his bikes and his parts. I guess on this occassion I got real lucky.
Thanks again everyone, yours Laz.
PS: as ever RK, your knowledge belongs in a jar we can all just pick from as & when necessary. Yet again my old friend, that brain of yours lets me fill in the blanks, cheers buddy
PPS: Pigman, "gotta laugh at the whistling forks" how true buddy, how true My dodgy Geofrey Butler 753 whistled also (same forks). Laz
All this info now ties into what the seller told me and I can piece together its history and correct dates etc.This bike has come from 1 guy (too small to ride her) who never rode her, who got it from the original owner. Her condition really is top quality, but moreover she rides like a 753, smooth as silk. The only problem I have now is " I've fall in love with it already " :?
Bought her for some parts, wheels Mavic501 hubs as NOS on MA40rims, and a white San Marco Rolls saddle. Gave her a test run (fatal I know) and realised she was pure class. Now with this info it looks like she'll have to nestle in along side my others.
Will post some more pics, and perhaps we can discuss her future more (and her past). She has done LEJOG and came with a box of spares (to die for). Whoever owned this liked his bikes and his parts. I guess on this occassion I got real lucky.
Thanks again everyone, yours Laz.
PS: as ever RK, your knowledge belongs in a jar we can all just pick from as & when necessary. Yet again my old friend, that brain of yours lets me fill in the blanks, cheers buddy
PPS: Pigman, "gotta laugh at the whistling forks" how true buddy, how true
My dodgy Geofrey Butler 753 whistled also (same forks). Lazpigman":sg5y08oz said:
653 was a halfway house between 531 and 753 -it had the same gauge tubing as 753 but a weaker steel (not 531 though).
UTS for 753 was 1315N/mm2, and indeed 653 has 753 stays. However the 653 main tubes had a UTS of 925 while 531C was 802N/mm2.
All according to Tony Oliver's book, anyway!
Hi.
Take a look at Reynolds own website, 653 effectively replaced 531Pro and 531Pro replaced 531SL (I have frames made from both SL and Pro and both are stronger than 753 and as light (seat of the pants as light). 753 can be fragile in certain conditions.
A great deal of fuss is made about 753 - size for size a 753 frameset would only be about 100 grams lighter than a 531Pro one.
Marketing often plays a role ahead of techical product development - this is always an important factor to consider.
Reynolds state quite clearly that 653 was a concept tubeset (531 maintubes, fork and 753 stays) and not a tubeset as such.
Referring to 653 as a"halfway house"is not really correct because of the points made above, fine as an opinion but technically incorrect.
Roadking.
Take a look at Reynolds own website, 653 effectively replaced 531Pro and 531Pro replaced 531SL (I have frames made from both SL and Pro and both are stronger than 753 and as light (seat of the pants as light). 753 can be fragile in certain conditions.
A great deal of fuss is made about 753 - size for size a 753 frameset would only be about 100 grams lighter than a 531Pro one.
Marketing often plays a role ahead of techical product development - this is always an important factor to consider.
Reynolds state quite clearly that 653 was a concept tubeset (531 maintubes, fork and 753 stays) and not a tubeset as such.
Referring to 653 as a"halfway house"is not really correct because of the points made above, fine as an opinion but technically incorrect.
Roadking.
This seems to be a misconception due to some dodgy posts on the internet that are now accepted as truth:
See this:
http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynol ... -sizes.jpg
You can see that the tubing is totally different between 531 and 653 in Reynolds' own datasheet.
The differences are in the heat treatment - if badly over-heated, 753 reverts to the properties of 531, as the alloy is the same.
For the whole story, there is a good account here...
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/forums/vi ... t=12576404
See this:
http://www.equusbicycle.com/bike/reynol ... -sizes.jpg
You can see that the tubing is totally different between 531 and 653 in Reynolds' own datasheet.
The differences are in the heat treatment - if badly over-heated, 753 reverts to the properties of 531, as the alloy is the same.
For the whole story, there is a good account here...
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/forums/vi ... t=12576404
A post on one of these threads says that 653 and 753 are the same, the only difference is the heat treatment!!!
Arrrgh, not the same then are they?
Not a bad thread but I believe my original contribution was pretty clear whilst avoiding too much technical stuff - Young's Modulus etc.
Lazarus was originally simply trying to identify his frame, which we've done and strayed a mile from the original objective in the meantime.
So I'll stand by my original comment about 653 being a"concept tubeset". I have been fortunate to have ordered a framset from the SBDU and have a number of friends who are retired framebuilders...talking to these people and researching the subject leads, I believe, to an informed opinion.
This is why I am often a little pernickety when discussing things - correct terminology is important - always learning.
Your contribution is appreciated though.
Roadking.
Arrrgh, not the same then are they?
Not a bad thread but I believe my original contribution was pretty clear whilst avoiding too much technical stuff - Young's Modulus etc.
Lazarus was originally simply trying to identify his frame, which we've done and strayed a mile from the original objective in the meantime.
So I'll stand by my original comment about 653 being a"concept tubeset". I have been fortunate to have ordered a framset from the SBDU and have a number of friends who are retired framebuilders...talking to these people and researching the subject leads, I believe, to an informed opinion.
This is why I am often a little pernickety when discussing things - correct terminology is important - always learning.
Your contribution is appreciated though.
Roadking.
Well I suppose I can see their point in the sense that 653 and 753 were the same alloy and dimensions, but agree with you that the result was totally different!
In the end a good frame is so much more than just a material choice, with geometry being the most important bit of all.
Hopefully that's something everyone can agree on. Personally I'm skeptical that many of us could detect the differences between materials if we were riding disguised bikes in the dark. Definitely we'd appreciate the differences in geometry (handling etc), but weight and materials, I'm not so sure. Of course they are a factor, but probably less than people think.
...And the really good guys will be the fastest regardless of the bike
In the end a good frame is so much more than just a material choice, with geometry being the most important bit of all.
Hopefully that's something everyone can agree on. Personally I'm skeptical that many of us could detect the differences between materials if we were riding disguised bikes in the dark. Definitely we'd appreciate the differences in geometry (handling etc), but weight and materials, I'm not so sure. Of course they are a factor, but probably less than people think.
...And the really good guys will be the fastest regardless of the bike
