F1 Powertrains and more exciting races?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/formula1/25158104

Used to be a big fan back in the 80s and early 90s but can't say I'm too fussed at the mo...will this make F1 better or should I just keep listening to it on the radio?

It'll be interesting to see who gets it right first...

i have got less interested in F1 in recent years, i watch it a bit if it's on but i tend to be more interested in the tactics because i think the "why" of what they do during the race is interesting, recently the redbull dominance has been boring but it's always like that when one team/driver is dominant.

having looked through those changes listed i think they are trying to make it more exciting so that there will be more overtaking, which seems to me is what they do every time they change the rules but it never seems to work. one team always seems to dominate and i don't think this will be much different.

if i want to watch racing i prefer touring cars or motorbikes for the actual spectacle of racing, the races are shorter and pitstops non existent or irrelevant so there tends to be more action.

I'm hoping it will be good...
I think if you took vettle out of the last few seasons then it would be all awesome. I can't say I disliek the guy hes just doing what he does best, but he's also in the best car that is really built for him, to me if he wants to prove he is the best, if it were me being him, 4 on the trot says i'm good, but if i want to prove i'm good, then I need to go to another team to show its not just the car.
I think having the tyres like they are is almost good, but they don't need 4 compounds (that they tell us about) they just need soft and hard, 1 that is fast but wears, the other that is long lasting but slow, but also give them more tryes. DRS if they have that, let them usit whenever they want not just in predicted areas.

For next year, I don't know why it has to be a v6, 1.6 sure, but let them run any cylinders they want 4,6, whatever for at least a tiny bit of variety... and I know they are going for some sort of pretend effiecency, but really, its F1 let them get back to 1000+hp engines

T'boo Ted":1nudfidv said:

I know they are going for some sort of pretend effiecency, but really, its F1 let them get back to 1000+hp engines

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Its not pretend efficiency, its maximum power from the available fuel. F1 powertrain suppliers will therefore have to make the most efficient systems they can and this technology will eventually find its way into our road cars meaning that we will get the required power for as little fuel as possible. It's a way of justifying the existance of F1.

Oh come on, 5 mpg is has nothing to do with real world fuel economy "Oh yes were only giving them 100kg of fuel for 300km of racing so they it will make it a very fuel efficient sport" they could have gone with 150kg (or even better 200 ) and let them run more power and run at full power to the end of the race, now its going to be the fuel efficiency wars.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the technology and progress and pushing things forward, I just don't think this is one of them or you may as well just switch straight to Formula E. When it comes to efficiency, sportscars/prototypes have more to do with impacting on road car technology than F1.

But anyway, while we're on it, I was thinking about this the other day; trickle down to real road cars, everyday cars not supercars etc, how much stuff was advanced from F1? These are just my thoughts;

-traction control/abs, started in F1 but were quickly banned and got most of their development in road cars
-active suspension, banned from F1 but not really used in road cars, maybe some passive was
-pneumatic valves, not used anywhere else
-turbos, most performance turbo cars got their influence from WRC over F1 and big players in the turbo era didn't even make turbo cars (eg Honda/BMW) and the efficiency turbos have nothing much to do with F1 (till next year maybe)
-carbon fiber, not really much use in road cars even aluminium isn't that widely used
-crazy exotic metals used for blocks, exhausts and wheels, were all banned
-carbon brakes, we get carbon/ceramic brakes for loads of money, but straight carbon, well you wouldn't want them on the road and not really on your everyday mondeo
-semi auto box, yep we now have those and they are common at all levels of cars
-KERS, does anyone make a car with kers? i'm sure there are other recovery things, not sure. Didn't Volvo make a kers system that is better than a F1 one, not sure, but i read that somewhere, but they still don't use it yet.
-ground effects, nope not much
-aerodynamics, not sure how relevant they are to road cars, but I'm sure there is some advantages gained.

*edit to add
that makes me wonder, they push the boundaries of CF in F1 from the mid 80's. Now we (well maybe not we here at retro bike, but in general cycling community) are all riding around on CF bikes with CF bars/stems/posts/cranks/wheels and frames and they are not prohibitively expensive, yet on cars it is still the realm of supercars. I can understand chassis and rigid structures, but unstressed panels like front wings, bumpers and doorskins could easily and fairly cost effectively be made from CF over steel or aluminium for some weight savings. At the moment they only seem to appear on the odd bonnet or roof of a "lightweight" version of a sports car (eg M3) for a hefty increase in price.

T'boo Ted":16bkbe26 said:

Oh come on, 5 mpg is has nothing to do with real world fuel economy "Oh yes were only giving them 100kg of fuel for 300km of racing so they it will make it a very fuel efficient sport" they could have gone with 150kg (or even better 200 ) and let them run more power and run at full power to the end of the race, now its going to be the fuel efficiency wars.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the technology and progress and pushing things forward, I just don't think this is one of them or you may as well just switch straight to Formula E. When it comes to efficiency, sportscars/prototypes have more to do with impacting on road car technology than F1.

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Although haven't been following too closely, I always watch the F1 races, even if I'm not quite as keen on the sport as I once was.

Fuel restriction and efficiency, and / or economy have always made races boring for me - I remember when it first seemed to impact CART / Champ car in the US, which is largely what made me lose interest in watching that. It may be clever, it may have real world implications or consequences (or not...) but I'm damned if I find it in anyway interesting to watch.

Same for the recent "innovations" like KERS and the F-Duct that evolved into DRS. The whole push-to-pass technology has made it rather contrived and video game like. I can understand teams tactically allowing a button to provide a temporary higher ceiling on available revs or a particular engine map, for a brief instant - but KERS and DRS have just made it too contrived for my liking. I know some people will say - yes, but races are exciting and there's more overtaking - well that's all fine and dandy, but when it gets almost a fait accomplis - which it is on some tracks - then it's just an artifact, it's not real racing. And on some tracks, due to their layout, it doesn't really change much.

It's all just too much: never mind the quality, feel the width...

T'boo Ted":16bkbe26 said:

But anyway, while we're on it, I was thinking about this the other day; trickle down to real road cars, everyday cars not supercars etc, how much stuff was advanced from F1? These are just my thoughts;

-traction control/abs, started in F1 but were quickly banned and got most of their development in road cars

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True, but was reintroduced for a few years - probably was a bit difficult to police. And even in the banned periods, there were always suspicions - what with menus that were "hidden".

T'boo Ted":16bkbe26 said:

-active suspension, banned from F1 but not really used in road cars, maybe some passive was
-pneumatic valves, not used anywhere else
-turbos, most performance turbo cars got their influence from WRC over F1 and big players in the turbo era didn't even make turbo cars (eg Honda/BMW) and the efficiency turbos have nothing much to do with F1 (till next year maybe)
-carbon fiber, not really much use in road cars even aluminium isn't that widely used
-crazy exotic metals used for blocks, exhausts and wheels, were all banned
-carbon brakes, we get carbon/ceramic brakes for loads of money, but straight carbon, well you wouldn't want them on the road and not really on your everyday mondeo
-semi auto box, yep we now have those and they are common at all levels of cars
-KERS, does anyone make a car with kers? i'm sure there are other recovery things, not sure. Didn't Volvo make a kers system that is better than a F1 one, not sure, but i read that somewhere, but they still don't use it yet.

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I thought I read that some cars have something similar - regenerative braking systems and the like - don't cars like the Prius or some such, harvest some energy when braking?

T'boo Ted":16bkbe26 said:

-ground effects, nope not much
-aerodynamics, not sure how relevant they are to road cars, but I'm sure there is some advantages gained.

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I guess with a lot of stuff used in F1, some will have precious little impact on everyday cars - although clearly VWs DSG gearbox and the seamless shift ones used in F1 must share some heritage / influence. And I suppose the notion of electro-hydraulic actuation of a conventional box - but they're pretty fringe in normal cars anyways.

Probably the more natural influence is from formulas like F1 to the various sports car formulas, and in turn, perhaps both have some influence in supercars.

Oh and now and again, I've seen the odd Clio or Focus with a pretend diffuser, does that count...

Neil":2c7njlet said:

Oh and now and again, I've seen the odd Clio or Focus with a pretend diffuser, does that count...

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why yes, yes it does.

Kers, while I dont personally liek the technology, it IS a way forward and its something they need to do, but I think instead of having a button, it was just incorporated into the normal power delivery of the car would be better.
DRS... I just... ugh. I think if they are going to have it, then let them have it when ever they want it, the driver with the most will use it best, but really.

They need to figure out some way to eliminate the dirty air, or give enough wings to make it not an issue, but no idea how they would do that, aero and fluid mechanics was one of my best subjects when I did engineering... but I'm not an engineer, so you can extrapolate how well that went.
That and make tracks that are tracks not -tight corner onto looooong straight, then tight corner then bunch of 90 D corners with a bunch of tightening corners, all with 15 miles of runoff and everyone cutting the track.

-traction control/abs, started in Touring Cars in the 70's (BMW). Banned in F1 but were already in road cars. Further developed in Touring cars in the 90's. (Mercedes)

-active suspension, banned from F1 but not really used in road cars, maybe some passive was. Yes, the technologies are used extensively in self-adjusting dampers and adjustable suspension (although only found in top-end hypercars/luxury saloons).

-pneumatic valves, used in Motorbike engines - also lead to the Fiat/Alfa Multiair engine.

-turbos, most performance turbo cars got their influence from.. Sportscars / GT's. BMW & Porsche pretty much invented turbocharging of petrol engines in Motorsport. Renault copied, then took it to F1.

-carbon fiber, used extensively in performance road cars & motorbikes, as well as boat hulls. One use of Carbon fibRE technology can be most prevalently seen in .... bicycles!

-crazy exotic metals used for blocks, exhausts and wheels, were all banned. But development of these has been extensively incorporated into the cycle industry, aerospace industry and exotic metals in engines (Gold & Beryllium) was actually a road car development (the BMW V12 in the McLaren F1) which made it's way into F1.

-carbon brakes, we get carbon/ceramic brakes for loads of money, but straight carbon, well you wouldn't want them on the road and not really on your everyday mondeo. Correct, fairly useless technology in the main, and being phased out/banned from many racing series.

-semi auto box, yep we now have those and they are common at all levels of cars.

-KERS, does anyone make a car with kers? i'm sure there are other recovery things, not sure. Didn't Volvo make a kers system that is better than a F1 one, not sure, but i read that somewhere, but they still don't use it yet. The Porsche 918 uses the Williams Flybrid KERS, and yes, pretty much all hybrids use KERS. The packaging of it developed in racing is hugely used by Infiniti, Toyota, BMW & Porsche - however much of this has been in Sportscars/GT's by Audi, Toyota and Porsche. (actually Zytek and Williams-produced hybrid systems). Next year in F1 the KERS is being incorporated into the power delivery instead of being a boost button - which unfortunately increases the Ders effect and makes it MORE important - which frankly sucks!

-ground effects, nope not much.

-aerodynamics, not sure how relevant they are to road cars, but I'm sure there is some advantages gained. Errmmmm, all of it? Movable / automatic wings, for example, diffusers (effective even at low speed i.e road-car speeds), downforce without drag, all of this is developed through motorsport.

And don't forget THE major developments in engines on the last 30 years - fuel injection and engine management.. Developed in Sportscars (Group C was THE major driving force behind engine efficiency and electronic fuel management) and later in F1. Direct injection engines were also developed through motorsport, and have provided a direct benefit to road cars.

Errrmmm... the Euro NCAP crash tests? Max Mosely's idea, developed from the F1 crash testing.
Side-impact and frontal crumple zones? F1 again..
There might not be much obvious trickle-down effect, but there's a lot more behind the scenes. Admittedly however, most developments come from Sportscar racing, which is far more open and interesting in terms of technologies - witness the Deltawing and just wait for Michelin's new 'sponge' wet tyres to hit the roads..

In terms of racing however, I'm pretty much convinced individual races will be great, but until they get rid of double-points for the finale/s, it's not worth watching F1 - especially now there's a world Sportscar championship back again!

Get well soon Michael....

T'boo Ted":2eqkk6xy said:

Neil":2eqkk6xy said:

Oh and now and again, I've seen the odd Clio or Focus with a pretend diffuser, does that count...

Click to expand...

why yes, yes it does.

Kers, while I dont personally liek the technology, it IS a way forward and its something they need to do, but I think instead of having a button, it was just incorporated into the normal power delivery of the car would be better.
DRS... I just... ugh. I think if they are going to have it, then let them have it when ever they want it, the driver with the most will use it best, but really.

They need to figure out some way to eliminate the dirty air, or give enough wings to make it not an issue, but no idea how they would do that, aero and fluid mechanics was one of my best subjects when I did engineering... but I'm not an engineer, so you can extrapolate how well that went.
That and make tracks that are tracks not -tight corner onto looooong straight, then tight corner then bunch of 90 D corners with a bunch of tightening corners, all with 15 miles of runoff and everyone cutting the track.

Click to expand...

Lots of people have thrown in off-the-cuff comments, over time, about reduced wing size / aero grip, in favour of upping mechanical grip. I think, though, that it's probably not that straightforward - when aero rules have ostensibly reduced downforce in the past, they've always managed to be sneaky little monkeys, finding some by being a bit innovative. Perhaps that in addition to greater mechanical grip might cause other issues.

Thinking back to when I used to watch CART / ChampCar - they often had mandatory aero packages for different types of tracks - admittedly, they raced on more diverse scenarios, but I know the super-speedways used to mandate wings that looked quite different from the wings they would run on street circuits, or lower speed tracks. That said, CART / ChampCars did used to run ground effects / venturi tunnels in that era, too. Those cars were bigger, heavier, with more basic gearboxes (think they just used levers), and steel brake discs - I suspect some of the notion being that being heavier, harder to slow down, with lots of power, would have some impact in drivers making a difference in terms of overtaking.