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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:45 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Good to see you getting stuck in Neil.

I reckon go look at it without a price agreed, to make one's mind up, and then offer one feels is a fair price cash on the spot.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:48 pm 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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If I want something badly I set a snipe at my highest amount and walk away. Or I see if buyer will accept my offer via PayPal or cash on collection if local. If anything else happens like this I'm not interested. Easy to say but harder to stick to. Especially if its a rare item.

Again, how badly do you want t and will there be another?

Hope ths Akers sense Friday night Black Russians kicking in.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:06 pm 
Special Retro Guru
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Thing is, asking somebody to end an auction early, for an agreed price is only a request - a seller can easily opt not to - and many do. If they accept, it's probably because the price seems reasonable, and a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, if you'll forgive the Dick-Emery-ism...

Refusing an early offer to end is completely reasonable, as is wanting to let the market set the price - can be a double-edged sword - but completely reasonable, all the same. What seems entirely wrong, and worthy of discouragement by not buying into it, is having a seller do that, then artificially inflate the price the market has decided, by shill bidding (if that is what has gone on, here).

I completely get why somebody wouldn't then either want to pony up their initial high-ball offer - which in fairness, was to expedite the situation - or their slightly lower, but highest bid during the auction - because they've had to accept trying to win at the market price, but suspect the "market price" was artificially inflated. I doubt anybody wants to feel manipulated like that - I know I wouldn't.

The problem I have with shill bidding, is this - if somebody is prepared to be so underhand, what else would they be prepared to be underhanded / misleading about - suddenly trust is out of the window, and it's not purely about the practical argument of the price somebody was once prepared to pay, but more about what's changed in the interim.

I think I get the thrust of technodup's implied point - that all sorts of dishonest, sneaky, underhand and manipulative things go in in some parts of the market - and that people should just acquiesce to it, so the dishonest, sneaky, underhand and manipulative can get away with it - but then some people, perhaps most, don't like that about the open market, and would prefer to not support it with their custom.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:17 pm 
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Chopper1192 wrote:
It looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, is almost certainly a small aquatic bird of the genus anatidae. Its a shill, and if you buy the bike you encourage him to try it again with someone else.


..and if your gut instinct tells you it's wrong - then go with your gut instinct and walk away. Even if you get the bike at the amount you originally were happy to pay, it will be forever tainted by suspicion that you've been ripped off. :(


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:18 pm 
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Conversely, a bird in the bush is worth much more than two in the hand.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:24 pm 
Gold Trader / PoTM Winner / RB Rider
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If you see through the scam would it be a window shill?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:33 pm 
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Neil wrote:
I think I get the thrust of technodup's implied point - that all sorts of dishonest, sneaky, underhand and manipulative things go in in some parts of the market - and that people should just acquiesce to it, so the dishonest, sneaky, underhand and manipulative can get away with it - but then some people, perhaps most, don't like that about the open market, and would prefer to not support it with their custom.
That's fine but talking about the open market (in this case Ebay) but wanting the right to persuade the seller to take it off the open market early then complaining about him manipulating the situation for his benefit doesn't sit right with me.

It's Ebay, not Bonhams. Use it and abuse it.

Or if you're playing by the rules, play by all the rules.

Ebay wrote:
Ending a listing early for the following reasons is prohibited as it is considered fee avoidance:
Cancelling bids and ending a listing early because the reserve price hasn't been met to avoid reserve fees. See Reserve Price Policy.
Cancelling bids and ending a listing early in order to sell the item off-eBay. You should be aware that as well as avoiding fees, you risk fraud by selling items off the eBay website. If a member writes to you to ask you to sell away from the eBay website, please report them to us.

Yes it's the seller in breach, but ffs we seem to talking morals and the buyer isn't exactly clean as a whistle .


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:37 pm 
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Rules are for the adherence of fools and the guidance of wise men.

It's not a UN resolution.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:42 pm 
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technodup wrote:
Neil wrote:
I think I get the thrust of technodup's implied point - that all sorts of dishonest, sneaky, underhand and manipulative things go in in some parts of the market - and that people should just acquiesce to it, so the dishonest, sneaky, underhand and manipulative can get away with it - but then some people, perhaps most, don't like that about the open market, and would prefer to not support it with their custom.
That's fine but talking about the open market (in this case Ebay) but wanting the right to persuade the seller to take it off the open market early then complaining about him manipulating the situation for his benefit doesn't sit right with me.


It takes some pretty flexible morals to equate somebody making an initial offer to buy at an established price, to a seller refusing (quite reasonably I might add) then (potentially using "insider info") to artificially inflate the market price (if indeed that's what's happened.

A seller won't agree to a buy-it-now unless it suits them - after all, why would they. It's an offer, they can, and do, choose to refuse, if it's not in their interests, or they think they can get a better deal. Encouraging them to be (potentially dishonest) and artificially inflate a price by shill bidding, suggests a certain moral flexibility and dishonesty that most would probably choose not to deal with.

technodup wrote:
Or if you're playing by the rules, play by all the rules.

Ebay wrote:
Ending a listing early for the following reasons is prohibited as it is considered fee avoidance:
Cancelling bids and ending a listing early because the reserve price hasn't been met to avoid reserve fees. See Reserve Price Policy.
Cancelling bids and ending a listing early in order to sell the item off-eBay. You should be aware that as well as avoiding fees, you risk fraud by selling items off the eBay website. If a member writes to you to ask you to sell away from the eBay website, please report them to us.


If I offer to buy-it-now on an auction, I'm not suggesting subverting ebay, or fee avoidance - quite the opposite - I'd still like the deal done on ebay, so I still have full buyer protection. But once again, the seller is under no obligation to accept, they presumably only will if the offer is acceptable.

technodup wrote:
Yes it's the seller in breach, but ffs we seem to talking morals and the buyer isn't exactly clean as a whistle .


Why?

The buyer hasn't behaved dishonestly. If the seller has use shill bidding to inflate the market price, they are clearly willing to be dishonest and untrustworthy, and - this is just me - not the type of person that once established, I'd choose to do business with - regardless of whether the deal was still agreeable, or not. What else would they be prepared to be dishonest and underhand about...


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 21, 2013 7:49 pm 
Section Moderator & South West AEC
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technodup wrote:
But seeing as we're being all fncking pious about an £80 bike deal, it's not fully kosher to be offering a price to end the auction early which afaics is what happened. Buyer tried to manipulate the auction before the seller did, then gets all antsy at the seller? Unless I've read it wrong.


first of all is the (miss spelling) swearing needed? please refrain from that.

second of all, i'm not getting antsy at the seller, i asked for an opinion on shill bidding because there are some very good computer guys on here who are very good at spotting the patterns of shill bidding


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