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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:04 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:47 am
Posts: 466
Location: belgium
Death penalty is bullshit too BTW.
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Did I just agree with Highlandsflyer? :shock: :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:17 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 723
Location: Highlands
People will find any number of reasons for division and supposing religion didn't exist they'd be killing each other for being different shades of brown, for coming from a different family, for being born in a particular village. Sad but true.

I should of course point out that I am not in any way excusing what was done in the name of Islam, and nor am I denying that Islam in particular has a long and apparently "theologically justified" history of treating non-Muslim human beings as nothing better than animals; on the other hand, anti-theistic regimes have done just the same things using Darwinism as their god, with the justification of "science". People will justify their hate using any means at all.

I am quite sure that the majority of Muslims in this country and possibly worldwide are perfectly decent and compassionate people who are every bit as horrified at the act in question as I am; whether they're being entirely true to their own religion in that I can't say with any certainty.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:44 pm 
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:47 am
Posts: 466
Location: belgium
ajm wrote:
People will find any number of reasons for division and supposing religion didn't exist they'd be killing each other for being different shades of brown, for coming from a different family, for being born in a particular village. Sad but true.

I should of course point out that I am not in any way excusing what was done in the name of Islam, and nor am I denying that Islam in particular has a long and apparently "theologically justified" history of treating non-Muslim human beings as nothing better than animals; on the other hand, anti-theistic regimes have done just the same things using Darwinism as their god, with the justification of "science". People will justify their hate using any means at all.

I am quite sure that the majority of Muslims in this country and possibly worldwide are perfectly decent and compassionate people who are every bit as horrified at the act in question as I am; whether they're being entirely true to their own religion in that I can't say with any certainty.


I think religion in itself can make people hate eachother.
Of course some groups abuse religion to accomplish their agenda, and these groups would abuse whatever theory, belief, etc. possible to accomplish their goals. However, sometimes it is just religion in itself that causes hatred and although I stand for the right of everyone to believe whatever they want, I think a world without religion would be a better one.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 10:29 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:33 pm
Posts: 11108
Location: The Home Of Mountain Biking, And All Great Things.
Easy to say Bram.

Speculating on what might be without religion will only ever be that. Seems it is part of man's make up.

Technodup, we are working well as a society. Really well.

Britain is in great shape.

This attack was a desperate, ineffective attempt at cowing the British public.

Most are rightly angry about it. Few are particularly scared or terrorised. Few are expecting the same to happen to them next time they step out into the road.

Since 7/7 we have thwarted a number of plots, they are now so desperate they are resorting to kitchen utensils in broad daylight.

It may sound perverse, but that seems to be progress to me.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 9:50 am 
retrobike rider
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Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2008 5:53 pm
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Location: Super Sussex by the Sea
FMJ wrote:
highlandsflyer wrote:
What more could you ask?



They're both alive, so send in teams with better aim?


I can't be the only one who finds this strange - Two police marksmen, two targets within metres, reports of between 4 and 6 shots fired and both targets survive?!?! Surely they weren't trying not to kill them? I know police aim for the biggest area and there is no shoot to wound policy, but the odds on both surviving are surely very slim indeed


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 10:33 am 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 7:13 pm
Posts: 2574
Location: The Cock Inn, Tillett, Herts
They aim for centre mass, although with a rifle, a spotter and a more controlled shooting environment you might specifically choose the X ring over the heart, or even a head shot - if, say, someone was holding a bomb trigger you want the brain disconnected from the nervous system instantly. While there is no shoot to kill policy or otherwise, you accept that you're using lethal force and a possible consequence is that the subject will kark it. Unless it strikes a major organ a 9mm isn't likely to prove fatal, especially as firearms officers are all first aid trained to paramedic level in order to care for the subject until the pro s arrive. The P26 isn't a brilliant pistol either. It's double action which make it relatively safe to carry, les prone to a negligent discharge, but it a big weapon and even big lads with big hands can find in uncomfortable - even on a calm low stress environment, like the range, you'd be very skilled indeed to hit a spot the size of a Kindle at 5 metres. In a live environment with stress, external stimuli and a moving target you'd be lucky to hit them at all, hence aiming for centre mass (the biggest target), and hence rounds going astray, hitting limbs instead of torsos etc. The pistol is for the AFO s protection rather than as a tactical option. Those bobbies were out the car and instantly faced with an armed adversary who's already used deadly force, instant arming off the hip, bang bang. Most of the pundits couldn't set the safety on a P26, so don't listen to a word they say.

Might've been different with the MP 5 which is very accurate for an smg and has a higher muzzle velocity, or the G36 which is essentially a military rifle, but if you have to get shot then a copper jacketed 9mm fired at very close range while the round is still moving in stable flight is probably the one you'd choose. There are examples of 9mms and .38s being deflected by car windscreen and mobile phones in pockets. They won't allow our dibble to use high powered handgun rounds like Magnums or the new10mm FBI standard because they might kill someone.
, and they're worried about over penetration etc.

The real reason they don't arm all police officers with firearms is the incredible start up cost of knitting up and training and the huge on going training costs, and fears over the suicide rate among officers with easy access to shooters. This business about policing by consent is utter bollarks and I've got the broken bones and had the surgery to prove it.
I


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:10 am 
BoTM Winner / Gold Trader
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 4715
Location: Burlington, ON Canada
Chopper1192 wrote:
The P26 isn't a brilliant pistol either.


SIGs or Glocks here. Much better choices IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Tue May 28, 2013 11:55 am 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Thu May 03, 2012 7:13 pm
Posts: 2574
Location: The Cock Inn, Tillett, Herts
I think the Glock 19 is set to become the national standard pistol for dibble. Whitehall are crapping themselves over a Mumbai style incident here so I reckon they're probably eyeing the large magazine when they made that decision.


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