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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 3:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 3:59 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 12:33 pm
Posts: 11105
Location: The Home Of Mountain Biking, And All Great Things.
technodup wrote:
I would guess you're in the minority there.

The whole holier than thou attitude does my tits in. Apart from the pious belief that we're 'better' than others what purpose does it serve? The rest of the world isn't looking and thinking we're to be commended for taking a moral stand. They're wondering why we're not tough on these ****.


No doubt I am in a small minority when it comes to the specific offence of killing a police officer in the light of recent events, but once the knee jerk reaction is over I am sure opinions will go back to the usual 50/40 split on capital punishment. Not such a small minority.

As far as 'holier than thou'; who is? The people who, with no evidence, assume the taking of a life is going to redress some balance or deter offenders?

Without wishing to encourage you into believing you have the skinny on the world view of our justice system, I would insist our societal values need not account for those of other nations. We make our own laws and follow our own path. We don't consult Somalia to form our policy on pirates, we don't go to Iran looking for answers on adultery. We value due process over summary execution.

Our 'moral stand' when it comes to human rights and justice are most certainly looked upon as exemplary by many nations; many base theirs on our own. The Gold Standard. Our involvement in questionable wars has not diminished this phenomenon as much as one may have feared.

I am sure the citizens of countries on the receiving end of war waged by British forces do not consider us to be going easy on these ****.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 4:57 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:35 pm
Posts: 209
Location: Hull
Im all for our criminal justice system using due process stc.However lets not forget that a man was brutally murdered in the street in exceptional circumstances and while I agree that kneejerk reactions and revenge attacks are most certainly not the way to go,this kind of attack and indeed this kind of crime needs to be dealt with harshly.
There are indeed innocent casualties of wars involving British forces but there are many innocent victims of terrorism and oppressive regimes.
I do not believe our forces should be in Afghanistan,or any other muslim country for that matter,but the fact is they are there and they are the people who under different circumstances would protect every one of us with their lives.Should they expect to be able to have our support and walk down the street in their own country despite the fact they are having to fight in a country where most of them probably dont want to be?Of course they should.
I am in favour of capital punishment when guilt for this type of crime can be proved beyond the shadow of doubt.There is ,Iagree,no proof that any balance will be redressed but,does someone who commit this type of crime really deserve to live amongst the majority of law abiding people in the world.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 6:07 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Location: The Home Of Mountain Biking, And All Great Things.
No one is suggesting they will live amongst anyone. They are obviously going to receive life terms with out release.

That is 'harsh' enough for me, and denies their desire for martyrdom as well as allowing us the opportunity to investigate their crimes at length and in detail. It might just help.

Once we go down the road of killing people in the name of justice we will be just the same as regimes like Iran, Saudi and the rest. The same beast in different clothes.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 6:28 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Thu Jul 05, 2012 6:35 pm
Posts: 209
Location: Hull
You do make a valid point about investigating their crimes and gaining information.However a lifetime in jail is not necessarily the punishment it probably needs to be.
However many people commit evil crimes and I do think it would cause them pause if their own life was at stake.Im not suggesting it would end all murder but it may save a few lives.In the case of multiple murderers who plainly have no chance of reform or in the case of this terrorist who by his own admission and in recent evidence would have no qualms about commiting this same offence again.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:24 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Fri Mar 25, 2011 7:48 pm
Posts: 1665
Location: Glasgow
highlandsflyer wrote:
As far as 'holier than thou'; who is? The people who, with no evidence, assume the taking of a life is going to redress some balance or deter offenders?
I don't know what evidence you need to see that if we executed these cnuts there would be balance. In fact it would be in our favour 2:1.

highlandsflyer wrote:
I would insist our societal values need not account for those of other nations. We make our own laws and follow our own path. We don't consult Somalia to form our policy on pirates, we don't go to Iran looking for answers on adultery. We value due process over summary execution.
What we really value is the 'right' for people to basically do as they like regardless of the consequences for others. Or so we are told. I believe proper control and punishment in schools would be welcomed. I believe the death penalty would be welcomed for certain crimes. I believe the rights of children and their families trump the rights of the likes of Jon Venables to have a quiet life. I don't care if death isn't a deterrent because prison demonstrably isn't. At least if they're dead they're not doing it again and they're not costing us money. We can have due process and execution, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

We could do worse than look to other states for inspiration. We do it all the time anyway, be it healthcare, schooling, immigration etc. Trouble is we only seem to look to other pussy euro states with the same liberal outlook we purport to have. That's working well.

Sometimes I forget I am on Retrobike and think I'm reading CIF.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:45 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:47 am
Posts: 466
Location: belgium
Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people living for today

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

...

song will never get old,
unfortunately...


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 7:52 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 723
Location: Highlands
highlandsflyer wrote:
Once we go down the road of killing people in the name of justice we will be just the same as regimes like Iran, Saudi and the rest. The same beast in different clothes.


I'm not at all sure about that (though I have actually agreed with quite a bit of what you've said so far.)

There is a huge difference between executing someone because their neighbour has claimed to the authorities that they said that Muhammad wasn't all he was cracked up to be, and on the other hand executing someone when there is conclusive proof that they have committed a deliberate, premeditated and vicious act of murder.

I think twice about flushing a spider down the toilet, don't eat animals if I can avoid it and abhor bloodshed - and yet I'd still back the death penalty (administered in as reliable, rapid and painless a way as possible) for such cases where there is no reasonable doubt whatsoever.

I accept that there would still be occasional miscarriages of justice carried out, but as it stands justice is not being served in any of these cases.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 8:04 pm 
Retro Guru

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2007 2:33 pm
Posts: 723
Location: Highlands
BramJ - that song is retarded claptrap, and I say that as someone who owns every Beatles album on CD; John Lennon may have had a quick wit and some occasional musical genius but he was hardly a wise man. If you seriously believe that without religion there would be no violence or murder then I'm sorry to say I think you have insufficient understanding of the human nature to be allowed out in public without a carer.


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 Post subject: Re: Woolwich attack
PostPosted: Mon May 27, 2013 9:02 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:47 am
Posts: 466
Location: belgium
ajm wrote:
BramJ - that song is retarded claptrap, and I say that as someone who owns every Beatles album on CD; John Lennon may have had a quick wit and some occasional musical genius but he was hardly a wise man. If you seriously believe that without religion there would be no violence or murder then I'm sorry to say I think you have insufficient understanding of the human nature to be allowed out in public without a carer.


I don't claim that. But I do claim we would have less violence and murder.
Religion divides people, enables demagogs to put people up against eachother, and is, when it comes down to it, utter bullshit.

'I think you have insufficient understanding of the human nature to be allowed out in public without a carer.'
Pathetic.


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