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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:03 pm 
MacRetro rider
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Would England really let us Scots have the revenue from North Sea oil if we we became independent, really ?

Aye Right ! as we say up here.

What are we going to do about it since more people live in London than live in the entirety of scotland, settle it over a punch up, get real.

Scotland will be poor if we dont remain in UK or EU, we'll just be Ireland with most of our talent emigrated.

There is no fire in the Scots belly beyond an irational hatred of the English based on wars fought in past history. Whole referendum is another waste of taxpayers money.

More should be done to make the United Kingdom a united kingdom so that we all think of ourselves as equal citizens of the same place, not the north/south, them/us attitude that has been the norm in this land for far too long.

Edit:- Previous statements by myself on this matter may have suggested I'm pro independence. However the SNP's case for independence has no substance, it all says everything will be ticketyboo just because and thats basically it.
Pathetic :facepalm:


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:12 pm 
MacRetro Deputy AEC
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whit he said ^^^^

i am all for more devolved powers but we must remain as part of the UK, the SNP have actually done not too bad a job in government and i think look after the interests of Scotland more than Labour/Tories.

will be interesting to see the debates going forward but i doubt the Yes campaign will convince enough people to gain the majority.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:11 pm 
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velomaniac wrote:
Scotland will be poor if we dont remain in UK or EU, we'll just be Ireland with most of our talent emigrated.
...
There is no fire in the Scots belly beyond an irational hatred of the English based on wars fought in past history.


There are plenty of independent experts who disagree wholeheartedly with your suggestion Scotland would be worse off post independence, and devolution so far has been demonstrably favourable to the Scottish economy.

Scotland is a very popular place to migrate to internationally. With control of our own immigration there is no reason to believe we could not attract all the talent we need to grow our industries, regardless of the number of talented Scots who might continue the tradition of setting out to make their mark in the world. With an excellent education system and a large public sector, it does not take much imagination to see how we could encourage home grown recipients of said education to commit to Scotland for at least a healthy portion of their career.

Suggesting the only real motivation towards independence has its roots in loathing the English or is historically related to wars hundreds of years ago is simply crackers. Scotland in long recent history is a socialist nation. Gaining independence would allow the people of Scotland to express that leaning, and would simply be more democratic.

Once again I ask, in relation to the Westminster rabble and their promise of more powers for Scotland if we say no to independence, who on earth do you all think you are? All the polling so far has indicated the people of Scotland would vote for further devolved powers if not for full independence. Why wait?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:17 pm 
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Rumble wrote:
Chopper1192 wrote:
Ah, the wonderful Alex Salmond stoking the flames to feed his own notoriety. After all, he's the only man in the world who seems not to understand the conventions that govern national borders and territorial waters when licking his lips over 'Scottish' oil.

I say we let Scotland have It's independence. The rest of the UK can stop funding them at a level grossly disproportionate to their GDP, the Welsh can have the nuclear subs and the jobs that go with them, and Scotland can rely on men with blue painted faces who strangle cats for music to defend them, or to perhaps act as a tourist attraction.


At the risk of feeding the troll... what an excellent demonstration of exactly why I'll be voting for independence.

A troll I may or may not be. Scottish I most definitely am, though I'm ashamed to say I don't live there, though with my wife retiring prematurely through ill health this year I may well be heading back.

And Salmond is a nob. Any slim chance of a yes vote is completely negated because of that idiot.

At a strategic level I'm not for independence. At a more personal level I'm all for it, as I'm a Shetlander and the islamders are poised to push for greater autonomy for Shetland and Orkney if Scottish Independenxe became a reality, and that's something is personally support, though being reliant on so many unlikely events happening in succession I doubt itll happen in my lifetime.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:39 pm 
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Chopper1192 wrote:
the islamders are poised to push for greater autonomy for Shetland and Orkney if Scottish Independenxe became a reality.


This is NOT contingent on a yes vote in the referendum! As they have clearly stated their stance is neither pro nor anti independence in this undertaking.

They are merely using the referendum debate as a springboard to call for further devolution and decentralisation, quite understandably.

Were the referendum to be scrapped they would continue to push in this direction.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:45 pm 
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how successful an independent Scotland is will rather depend on its starting position, how much oil but also what share of the UK national debt. Some optimistic folk seem to think can take the assets and walk away from the debts some of which will have built Scottish roads, schools, hospitals never mind the couple of banks that had to be bailed out or would they want these assets as well ? It's been mentioned before but no answers given. Without clarity on what it means no one knows whether it is good or bad, and since none of this will be discussed beforehand then it will be a complete punt. No doubt the poorer off in English society will end up paying for it despite they were oppressed as much by the ruling Engish classes (Edward I et al) as the Scottish were all those centuries ago ?

have people seen http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0 ... t_Britain/ quite interesting about some of the internal squabbling

If some of the Islands are looking at the Falklands type relationship with Westminster, will they go with Edinburgh who I'm sure will want more control over their new empire ???


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:45 pm 
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Oh, absolutely it's not any formal arrangement triggered by a yes vote. It's simply a movement slowly gathering interest and a yes vote is seen as being liable to add momentum to the cause, generate more interest, and legitimise any such future push for automomy by the Shetlanders themselves. A nexus in time, politics and history, but I suspect a convergence of Events that is unlikely to occur.

We're the referendum scrapped they would doubtless continue to push, but a successful yes vote will generate interest momentum and political precedent, all of which are seen as liable to cut decades from the process. I suspect ill be cold in the ground, never mind back in the islands before this put come seems likely.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:13 pm 
MacRetro rider
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Quote:
Scotland is a very popular place to migrate to internationally


Almost as many people migrate away from Scotland as migrate to it. Many migrants are economic from within EU and ebb and flow as economic situations dictate. International students come to our great educational institutes then leave again. The birth rates decreasing and the life expectancy is going up so the tax paying workforce are decreasing. The industries many work in are foreign owned and from outwith the EU so of course they use scotland as an EU base but post independence EU membership is not guaranteed so said industries will shift. Those industries that are home grown need to be members of trading blocks, UK membership has developed many scottish household names etc.

Tourists want to come here for two week holidays which is a good boost to the economy but how many imigrants illegal or legal if given the choice between Scotland and SE England will put us at number 1.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:26 pm 
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KDM wrote:
For a long time people like Mr Salmon have basically inferred Scotland wished it's independence and can largely be fund it through North Sea Oil and of course still taking money off the rest off the U.K. whilst claiming to be independent.

Recently the Island collective including the Shetlands, Western Isles, Orkneys etc have said that should the independence go through then they would seek the same independence from Scotland that the Falkland Islands have from the U.K. and they the islands collective, would now control the oil and it's revenues as it is in their waters. That's a poke in the eye for Mr Salmon and rather would leave him in a difficult situation.


"Of course still taking money off the rest of the UK"? Really? Explain that if you can.

Again, the island representatives raising this debate are not making it contingent on a yes result in the referendum. Read up.

Yes some of the oil is near Shetland, but not the majority of it and there is no simple equation that would put any of it in Shetland's waters, (most likely it would be limited to the same 12 miles other Crown Dependencies retain, if that was the route they went down).

The SNP are very supportive of further autonomy for defined regions within Scotland.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 19, 2013 2:34 pm 
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Image

Anyway, what happens if the 'rest of the UK' lose London's economic benefit to some degree? Most regions don't pay their way.

"Devolution in London can help solve the city's problems

Recommendations in the London finance commission's report would let councils respond quickly to local issues"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/local-governm ... ion-report


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