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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 1:39 pm 
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ringo wrote:
I assume Salmond and his band will be up for taking their share of the National Debt on if they go...

This minor (!) point never seems to get mentioned when discussing whetehr Scotland could stand on it's own two feet economically.



That’s a fair point. The whole affair seems ridiculously complicated.

As a separate country would not everything need to be renegotiated? Currency, trade, taxation, defence, investments, free movement etc, the implication seem huge yet AS seems to paint the picture that the separation would be straight forward.

Surly there is a better solution to the issue than an complete split, it almost makes me think that the driving factor for independence is not about creating a better environment for the Scots but more so the mentality of being free from the English.

To me this seem crazy as no county is truly free to behave totally independently nowadays.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:16 pm 
MacRetro rider
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In the absence of having any answers to difficult questions, the nationalists have reverted to negative type - it is all Westminster's fault”
End Quote
Alistair Darling

Better Together campaign

This quote may be true but it also reflects politics in the UK as Mr Darling is himself just flinging insults and his own party frequently blames the previous Labour government for all of their failings and likewise labour blames the torries.

Step forward with well thought out arguements and honestly answer all questions so the electorate can make an informed decision.

Quote:
it almost makes me think that the driving factor for independence is not about creating a better environment for the Scots but more so the mentality of being free from the English.


There is a lot that is true in that statement even if it reflects poorly on us Scots. Unfortunately no Englishman can understand as they have not been indoctrinated from birth. We have been conditioned to take umbridge at the least slight, a classic being if Andy Murray wins a tennis match he's a great British athlete but if he loses he's a Scotsman, we're only proper UK members if we make Britain shine. Another classic is the majority of the UK citizens are English and never tell anyone they're British or UK citizens hence the rest of the world assumes the UK is just another name for England. When i speak foreigners say, oh your English, i correct them and make a joke about what dangerous waters they're in. I dont hate you England but you will never understand what the Scotland/England relationship is because your not Scots. The Irish and Welsh would probably agree on this point.

Unfortunately come the vote, a lot will vote with their hearts not their heads......Sorry :roll:


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 3:51 pm 
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Sadly I feel that should the yes vote succeed then the mental divide between England and Scotland will only increase leaving both parties worse off then before.

It would be a huge step backwards in my mind, although potentially shorted lived due to the increasing integration between countries.

A divided UK would only increase the calls/pressure on England and Scotland to join the EU leading to even less independence for both parties.

Maybe this is the future however full membership of the EU seem more like assimilation rather than integration. After four hundred years of union between England and Scotland the Scottish culture, spirit and identity is still going strong, I doubts we will be able to say the same following full integration of the EU.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:39 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Location: "Guzz" .."House of Kona"..Gods Country
When you read this please take into consideration..that this a calm disscusion between us all and no raised voices!!!

This would be a shame if Scotland became independant..as from an International perspective as the world looks in its better we are one.

I was born in Swansea..mum and dad are English..i refer to myself as a "Brit" /British

I work within the MoD..i have colleagues who work in Coulport and Faslane..i know how much that would effect the local communities if these were to close and relocate..Falmouth in Cornwall has been looked into it could take the Trident Bombers..these will have a another refit at Devonport over the next 10 years

The North sea oil issue...how long has that got..i am asking as i dont know.

Free universaties/education..free dental care..free care for the elderly..free perscriptions..this all has to be funded and paid for..how could this done raise your taxes..again please tell me i dont know

Andy Murray..being referred to as a Brit if he wins and a Scot if he loses..didnt Andy wear south American team shirt and openly support this team when they played England!!..i am afraid media has a lot to play on this

Is Mr Salmon going to ask 16 and 17 year olds to vote for independance so he is in with a chance of getting what he wants..lets face it what we thought about when we were 16/17 years old our views does not have any bearing on what we think now

The vote will decide..and all the debt goes with it..you cant pick and choose.I hope this will put an end to the ill feeling that sometimes raises its head. if a Scot has a moan at me or a "pop" at english..i will just say you had the vote and the majority of your fellow country did not want independance :?

We are all adults here

Ernie :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 4:59 pm 
MacRetro rider
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I'm a strong believer in democracy, if the votes for Independence then I'm Scottish, if for the Union I'm British. Currently I'm British though I'd favour a United Republic but thats just me and a different debate entirely. There does need to be more effort to emphasise how good it is to be British though. If the Scots still have a problem after 300 years then getting the many ethnic minorities within the UK to be British first is going to be a tough excercise. Lets all be British and Proud and Lets all be European and Proud, fighting the break up of the UK but supporting the breakaway from Europe seems daft:D
Still dont know how I'll vote though, only time will tell.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 6:09 pm 
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For a supposed economist he's pretty sketchy on the details.


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2013 10:13 pm 
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The referendum is the starting point for working out the details. Spending tens of millions hacking out the minutiae makes no sense before we know if independence is proceeding. Naturally Scotland would assume its share of debt.

As for identities being lost in the EU, I haven't noticed that happening to other countries.

Anyway it is all hot air, there is no way the referendum will result in a yes.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 8:05 am 
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velomaniac wrote:
you will never understand what the Scotland/England relationship is because your not Scots. The Irish and Welsh would probably agree on this point.


And so would I :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:13 pm 
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I can't agree that the 'international perspective' would be less favourable to Scotland were we fully independent.

Scotland has a unique identity within the international community, a very high profile and superb links with many nations. I cannot see that diminishing under any circumstances, after all many of our forebears settled right across the globe.

I also really don't feel you need to be Scottish to understand the issues surrounding the referendum. Couple of my best friends in the SNP are German. Many 'immigrants' I know are very proud to be part of the fabric of modern Scotland, and are very supportive of independence. (It should come as no surprise from erstwhile members of the Soviet Block or such, or those whose nations are young.)

There are many examples in the past few decades of states moving for independence successfully. It is a nonsense to suggest Scotland, with so much already unique and long existing in terms of regional rule, could not make the transition smoothly.

Andy. As a resident of the Isle Of Man and Greece, you will have a great affinity with the Highlands and Islands way of life. Much more so than a life long resident of central Glasgow, for example.

Likewise having lived on islands and in remote rural areas I feel I have as much in common with an islander from the South Pacific as I do with a most urbanites.

Being 'Scottish' in 2013 is more about attitude and identity with a modern, inclusive country than old rivalries of the clans.

There seem to be a couple of misnomers regarding the SNP, likely to do with the Nationalist part of that title.

The SNP Scotland is not 'inward looking' at all; quite the reverse. This indicates an independent Scotland would be far more inclusive and engaged globally than the England dominated union.

Pushing for independence and for further powers is all to do with running Scotland according to the principles the majority of the population adhere to, it is nothing to do with 'bad' nationalism.

If only the Devo Max option was on the ballot.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2013 3:52 pm 
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A well written, thoughtful post - and one expressing views that I'm in complete agreement with.


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