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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:49 pm 
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I say give them all to Wiggins.

Daft words from Dowsett on the news.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:58 pm 
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No-one can deny that Armstrong was a great rider, arguably the best ever, but he was proven to be a cheat, and, going by the evidence, an arrogant, bullying cheat.

UCI will do as little as they have to because they don't like admitting their impotence in allowing cycling to get as dirty as it was.

It doesn't matter about what retrospective action they take about his titles because his detractors will always think he won dirty and his fan club will say he never tested negative and besides, everyone else was at it so he was still the best.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:10 pm 
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gerryattrick wrote:
No-one can deny that Armstrong was a great rider, arguably the best ever, but he was proven to be a cheat, and, going by the evidence, an arrogant, bullying cheat.


You can't be the best ever if you base your career on one race.

Of course he doped, if he didn't then he would be the greatest athlete of all time in any sport, able to go up against an entire TDF field who were doping and he beat them clean? Not just unlikely but impossible. By winning so many in a row he instantly made himself a target for suspicion. Sad but true.

My biggest issue with the man is the sheer pious arrogance of him.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:10 pm 
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Personally I think this highlights why so many, myself included believe this to be a witch hunt by the usda and I'll explain why

Why now? there is nothing to be gained but with Lance now retired from professional competitive sport he hasn't got the influence he once had, relatively few sponsors within the sport to influence the money and generally ..I think he pee'd a few off in the usda

Also like most things that are American officialdom they spoke before they thought..they may have the power to remove titles domestically but not internationally..they can suggest, request, implore but internationally the uci holds the bag and the usda having now painted themselves into a corner are now trying to get out by forcing the governing body to do something they do not want too, bullying if you will

Lets say he cheated, it would by rumour..suggest every one of the top cyclists also did. So lets say you strip him of the titles...who would you actually give them too?

Given that Lance was one of the most tested athletes on planet earth and they never had conclusive proof he ever cheated....given the usda comes from the land of the free how can he face a punishment without conclusive proof

The teamates then..some are saying they know he did it...almost all of them are in bed through deals with the usda...but two points here..one, statements through deals have a vested interest for everyone bar the accused and are rarely accurate...as to the usda's part...it would mean some athletes that would have passed the tests they were given, showing the usda's tests/process's and they as a body were/are innefective

This was headlines over a month ago so why has it suddenly popped up again? Well currently Lance is still shown as the seven times tour winner, the usda don't like that, insist they have the power to strip him..they don't and want to keep this witch hunt in the headlines to bully the uci into removing the titles

The uci have been very critical of the usda even suggesting they have sent a summarised report of the facts and not the entire report and here is where I feel it will all collapse

through pure inneffective stubborn unprofessional standards the usda has shot themselves in the foot and shown as a governing body that they and their entire process needs to be scrapped

the reason? either Lance was genuinely a clean athlete or the usda over a decade was unable to catch and convict those who cheated and that casts more of a cloud over the usda than anything facing lance and now they have put themselves in that position...like a politician trying to fight a way out of a lie..the usda has proven itself less trustworthy than any single athlete


Last edited by sylus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:11 pm 
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agreed, Highlandflyer

Just read this in the Guardian, very interesting

'Reasoned decison' leaked

A copy of the Usada "reasoned decision" has been published on Scribd by a known cycling expert, RaceRadio. This report has been published by the New York Times. A spokeswoman for Usda told the Guardian she was "aware" of the leak, but it had not yet officially officially published the report.

The report, which runs to 202 pages including addenda, says the testimony of George Hincapie is crucial. "Hincapie had no doubt that Armstrong doped and therefore no one else should either," it says.

The report, "Reasoned decision of the United States anti-doping agency on disqualification and ineligibility," includes an addenda detailing the separate testimony of 11 former Armstrong teammates.

Here's the Hincapie section:

Hincapie has testified that he was aware of Armstrong’s use of EPO and blood transfusions.

He reports that Armstrong even provided EPO to Hincapie for Hincapie’s own use.

Hincapie explains how he, like Armstrong, was a client of the doping doctor Michele Ferrari who incorporated EPO and blood doping into Hincapie’s training program.

And, Hincapie admits that he participated in the USPS/Discovery Channel blood doping program. A close friend of Armstrong and a key member of his team, Hincapie was in a position to know a great deal about what Armstrong was doing throughout the period from 1994 through 2005. As Armstrong wrote: “There have been times when I’ve practically lived out of the same suitcase with George Hincapie. In cycling we’re on the side of a mountain for weeks, in small hotel rooms, sharing every ache, and pain, and meal. You get to know everything about each other, including things you’d rather not.”

As indicated in his affidavit, Hincapie remains loyal to Armstrong. While Hincapie felt compelled to tell the truth to USADA, it was clear in discussion with him that he had no axe to grind and still thought highly of Armstrong’s abilities as a cyclist and ability to overcome adversity.

However, what Hincapie also knew about Armstrong and what he has testified to inintimate detail is Armstrong’s immersion in the doping culture on the USPS/Discovery Channel teams. Hincapie had no doubt that Armstrong doped and therefore no one else should either.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:12 pm 
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That's as may be but the real reason they will want him shot down is the millions of taxpayers dollars that paid for US Postal.

Though conversely that would also be a reason for keeping it all under wraps.


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:17 pm 
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sylus wrote:

This was headlines over a month ago so why has it suddenly popped up again? Well currently Lance is still shown as the seven times tour winner, the usda don't like that, insist they have the power to strip him..they don't and want to keep this witch hunt in the headlines to bully the uci into removing the titles

The uci have been very critical of the usda even suggesting they have sent a summarised report of the facts and not the entire report and here is where I feel it will all collapse


Reason being, "On August 24, 2012, the United States Anti-Doping Agency (USADA) announced it had imposed a sanction of lifetime ineligibility and disqualification of competitive results achieved since August 1, 1998, on United States athlete Lance Armstrong. Mr. Armstrong’s sanction was announced at that time by USADA because Mr. Armstrong had notified USADA that he was refusing to contest the evidence against him in a hearing before neutral arbitrators." from USADA Reasoned decision, page 1 http://www.scribd.com/doc/109619079/Reasoned-Decision

According to WADA rules, they do have the power to strip him of titles, but the UCI can appeal the decision, although they have said they will go along with it, unless obvious errors. What is now in the public domain, and I'm reading as quickly as possible, has been sent to UCI, but only yesterday, apparently, and UCI had been complaining about the time taken


Last edited by Pyro Tim on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:25 pm 
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And there in I feel lies the reason for the summarised selective report and the time delay

By claiming lance was a drug cheat for all those years they have effectively admitted as a testing and authoritive body they failed continously and were unable to guarranty their own results and findings

They are so focused on hunting a retired racer they seem to be oblivious to the fact it damages themselves more than any other


Last edited by sylus on Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 2:28 pm 
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sorry Sylus, I edited my post, as I was wrong. Changes the reason why the delay


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 3:07 pm 
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It's okay i edited the tail end of mine :D

The delay adds even more to the suggestion that the usda should be disbanded and rebuilt. There was no reason for the delay no matter what the usda claim

To go to trial they would have had to have absolutely 100% proof to convict or have strong enough suggestions/evidence to push forward a case to be reviewed

Now, if the only thing that changed was Lance said I ain't playing anymore then that entire report could and should have been sent by the usda to uci within 24-48 hours

Having just read the report I can see why the delay occured. It reads more like a novel of suggestion, supposition, inferrences and in some cases novel related drama based on opinion rather than fact..they clearly took away the documents for court and had re-written them to sound like the latest conspiracy drama

The legal basis for the court case report could and should have been in the uci's hands within 24-48 hours.... instead usda took back the report and hollywooded it to imply more than a court would have accepted and jazz it up

the continual use of "reasoned decision" in so many paragraphs seems as though the usda are trying to convince others of suggestions as truth rather than a bodies suspicions and mostly unproveable direct proof. The broken record technique if you will..say it often enough over and over again and hope someone believes you

but again..lets say Lance did use the same techniques it is claimed the entire top group also used...Who would you give those titles too given that the usda have by the defined attack on lance...couldn't detect an elephant if it was standing right infront of them?

Lance will always have those that believe him to be the most important cyclist of his generation..and those that are convinced he is the biggest cheat on earth..that will not change

What will have to change however is that when we have governing bodies, that they be effective and vigilant and not then turn on the controlling body when the intial body like the usda...show they have been ineffective for years

With Lance competitively retired the biggest changes may effect the accusers more than anyone else in a way they won't like... so in many ways I can see why lance is sitting back and watching the backstabbers fight amongst themselves for his amusement


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