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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:50 pm 
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Anyway, its up to UCI to decide not USADA.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:50 pm 
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DA-EVO wrote:
Lance Armstrong handed lifetime ban from sport by USADA. All competition results after 1st Aug 1998 are to be removed.

USADA statement here:

http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-armstrong8242012

So essentially, witnesses / testimony - that seems at least could be at least in some examples to be questionable - and "analytical data" what does that mean?

What's the scope and remit of the USADA?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:56 pm 
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gerryattrick wrote:
hamster wrote:
While I don't like Armstrong particularly, I have to say that USADA seems unjust to disqualify someone without clear and tangible evidence. Lots of stories are not evidence.

...


I've always admired Armstrong and no idea whether he took drugs or not, but I would have thought that verbal evidence from many sources, that is consistent and credible, does constitute clear and tangible evidence.

Courts of law have convicted people of murder on such evidence, and they normally require much stronger evidence of guilt than tribunals or agencies.

The proviso is that the witnesses have to be consistent and credible and that is something the USADA has to be sure of.

Any stance we take, whether for or against expunging his TDF wins, is likely to be based on our own personal preconceptions.


I agree with your point witness statements: so where are they on the public record from USADA? That's the bit that worries me: no evidence submitted publicly - lots of stuff in the press, but no public evidence as I see it from USADA. In a court case, even if you plead guilty the prosecution still have to give exact charges of what and when.

It just looks like conviction in absentia, without even a trial...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:00 pm 
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As usual an American body thinks it owns the world.

The usda is not the governing body so can't do jack.

It may seem a strange decision but I'm going to take a guess at the thinking.

Lance has to be the most tested athlete on the planet and yet has passed every test/screening, it's clearly a witch hunt.

The usda has to now admit it is either a witch hunt or admit that having passed every test but they insist he still used drugs, that the usda testing proceedures cannot be trusted and so invalidates any results they put forward and...casts serious doubt on the usda.

So why step away? me I would think..you know what I've worked hard to get the good life I have why should I waste all that money on lawyers so would say to them...innocent till proven guilty..prove it..I'm done with you

As usual the american body hasn't seen the doubt this has caused on their own validity and legitamacy because they are blinded by the witch hunt with Lance


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:03 pm 
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According to WADA, USADA have juristiction, and can remove his titles, so they can do jack


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:07 pm 
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Well said Sylus, the old adage of innocent until PROVEN guilty should still be applied. USADA and WADA need to produce the evidence and let the UCI make the decision about any talk of potential title stripping.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:26 pm 
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.... well they have taken his 7 tdf victories away. :twisted:

what is the point? if the test at the time revealed nothing then imo leave it be. why did it take 10 years to surface?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:33 pm 
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02gf74 wrote:
.... well they have taken his 7 tdf victories away. :twisted:

what is the point? if the test at the time revealed nothing then imo leave it be. why did it take 10 years to surface?

Don't believe the TDF victories have been rescinded, yet - I think USADA would like to, but surely it's the UCI that rules on that?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:36 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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velomaniac wrote:
Unless the testing and other evidence can prove he cheated in a court of law he is innocent.


This is not a criminal case it is a sporting anti-doping case, it would not go to a court of law unless there was strong of evidence of criminality. Sports anti-doping cases go to arbitration. This is, in the case of cycling, mostly done by the national sporting body for cycling or its Anti-doping arm (USAC, USADA). Escalation of this process is a higher court called CAS if a dispute cannot be resolved at the lower level. In cycling the UCI can also start proceedings.

velomaniac wrote:
If all thats needed is an accusation then no ones safe.


The case was to be arbitration. Witness testimony from ten people and other evidence was to be presented. The charge sheet is a lot bigger than that. http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/ ... ng0613.pdf Arbitration is completed under U.S. law and witnesses give testimony under oath. That is a lot stronger than an accusation in any proceedings.

velomaniac wrote:
No smoke without fire is true.

However if they could categorically prove he was guilty they would have banned him years ago. USDA has only won because Lance stopped fighting not because USDA proved he cheated.

I believe in proof, did he cheat ? Prove it !


USADA in their opinion, do not need to prove anything at this juncture, arbitration was offered and declined. They are backed by WADA thus far. With the evidence and testimony they believe they have, they can and have imposed sanctions on him. Plus, in declining arbitration, his recourse to a higher authority (such as CAS) is currently blocked as he did not exhaust his legal avenues within the structure he agreed to when he signed for a racing licence. USADA state they will reveal the evidence they have once the case is concluded. Its not impossible to rule out, however, that this case may still be going on for a long time.

velomaniac wrote:
Plus if Lance didn't win all those TDF's then who did bearing in mind any other contestant would have to be squeaky clean too !


Absolutely. Here is an article that highlights the difficulties with where the wins might have gone.. http://velonews.competitor.com/2011/06/ ... ium_176880

IMO I'm not sure after this time the older results will get re-distributed - however you may find that 3rd place in 2009 is now occupied by someone called Wiggins and that may be near enough for alteration. Bjarne Riis still is listed as '96 winner.

velomaniac wrote:
Anyway who the hell are the USDA, they speak for the USA not strangely enough the world no matter what US inflated ego's think.


USADA are a WADA signatory. as with UKAD, if they ban someone from competition, due to their WADA connection, that ban goes to all signatory sports and countries, and thats a lot of countries and sports. If the other people in this case are found guilty too, they risk the same WADA sanctions. WADA is backed by the IOC so the framework is quite large and has the ability to sanction countries or sports at Olympic level.

This case, this Athlete will divide opinion more than most, however, like his peers, he was subjected to sporting rules when he signed for a licence. Many of his peers have been long since caught and discredited. The process is there for a reason and it serves all.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:42 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Neil wrote:
02gf74 wrote:
.... well they have taken his 7 tdf victories away. :twisted:

what is the point? if the test at the time revealed nothing then imo leave it be. why did it take 10 years to surface?

Don't believe the TDF victories have been rescinded, yet - I think USADA would like to, but surely it's the UCI that rules on that?


That is down to if:

1) WADA accept the USADA sanction and punishments
2) UCI accept same
3) ASO want to change the results - its essentially their event.


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