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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 5:25 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Cause - (dare I say)liberal ideal's creeping in to education & society. Freedom to behave and act as one wishes purely because you have the right to do so. The media also has alot to answer for in its desensitisation and general liberal waftiness.

Effect: If input = nothing, Reward = plentiful & free.

or: no punishment + tollerance + know your rights = a big mess.

The education system failed the boy in question as he had no punishment handed out to him, but instead was rewarded for doing whatever he chose.
Society failed him as he had no punishment for doing exactly what he chose. But was rewarded for essentially being anti-social.

I have no problem with freedom of speech or expression whatsoever, but its a tricky game to play with an entire society as this a powerful notion, and is all too easily taken advantage off. I for one do not envy the position of politicians to make decisions for the masses, but to me it is clear that many things have been handled very wrong for too long.

Are you suggesting that Maggie is to blame for this breakdown due to a Gorden Gecko 'greed is good' ethos?
Surely that moral was ''work very hard & reap the potentially enourmous rewards''? (admittedly ignoring the 'walk over anyone to acheive' part that you will no doubt want to retort)
Not,
''no one can harm you as you have rights, and these are your rights, which we will teach you as guilty/lazy/criminal (and decent) people deserve equal opportunities, and are you aware of how much can be achieved by doing nothing?'' attitude of the last term has more to answer for?

Im willing to accept that the tories may have got the ball rolling on that front, but labour ran with it.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:53 pm 
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The break down of society I believe is wholly to do with a lack of discipline, a time when it was created that adults were not permitted to hit children and a time when children knew their rights better than anyone else in society, including the police who run the other way, turn blind eyes when it is kids are up to no good harrassing other members of society, and resulting in the term untouchables as kids know they are so doing no good is no problem.

I have had problems with marauding gangs of kids who turned out to be sub fourteen in age, they vandalised my car to an extent it was unusable and I video taped them doing it for presentation to the police who when they viewed it informed me I had no right to video tape children at play and of the damage they caused the cops knew who they were and told me they were untouchable due to their age, they would not prosecute my problem was my own, but to desist in video taping children.

The reason they vandalised my car, was because it was a big yellow vw camper parked out on the road on the edge of a nasty estate where the kids could not 'play' due to cctv, my car was such a target and the alarm system was on a hair wire. As a law abiding citizen, I asked the police to do something about the constant vandalism, their answer was if I did not want my vehicle damaged, get rid of it and buy something mundane.

So, who or what caused this situation, for those sub fourteen year olds seven years ago are what age now, young adults, no doubt with much the same attitude they were schooled in. So was it school, or something that became apparent in their schooling, I cannot see it's teachers, for they were held in regulation, so where did this situation come from, this lack of respect that even the teachers in society did not benefit from and if anyone, teachers should be respected for doing the job the government needs them to do as it is the law of the land that kids go to school.

Who or what informed kids of their rights against everyone else in society, for the rot starts with the young.
.........................................................................
Also to whomever keeps going on about the work shy, be careful, for you are lumping everyone who is in receipt of welfare in the same basket, sure there is the professional scrounger, but not everyone is one of those.

But perhaps I am being unfair, for perhaps your only education on the matter comes from the media who are all too keen to attack the defenceless in society in the name of making money. All the other minorities have laws attached to their status so cannot be ridiculed, so the unemployed are a perfect target. The politicians also, they jump on the bandwagon and demonise those people government has failed to serve.

The question I will ask, is what came first, the politicians condeming the people on benefits, or the newspapers ?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:03 pm 
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From what I can see where I live,in early 90s when I was at school we did worry about getting into trouble and as such we behaved to a greater extent,I can remember kicking a football in an olds mans garden on purpose so he would chase us,but then we cleared the snow from his path in the winter for him as well :?

The worst I can remember doing is scrumping apples and telling a man to sod off when he caught us cycling on the pavement :lol: :lol:

The problems,where I live,began about 1999/till today :? wonder who was in power then :wink: coincedence perhaps....I doubt it,the "lefty thou shalt not teach your children respect by a clip round the lug" types ie;have a lot to answer for.................


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:17 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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silverclaws wrote:
Also to whomever keeps going on about the work shy, be careful, for you are lumping everyone who is in receipt of welfare in the same basket, sure there is the professional scrounger, but not everyone is one of those.
But perhaps I am being unfair, for perhaps your only education on the matter comes from the media who are all too keen to attack the defenceless in society in the name of making money. The question I will ask, is what came first, the politicians condeming the people on benefits, or the newspapers ?


If I mention the work shy, it is becasue I am refering to the work shy.
I have no beef with any decent citizens, only the anti-social.
And my opinions are not based on media hype, they are founded on rounded opinion and experience.
I am able to discern between conspiracy theory and reality. I hope.


Last edited by KeepItSteel on Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:27 pm 
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Just to back up the work shy argument,I live in the most deprived town in the east,and our local jobcentre has at least four/five bouncers working there all the time,this is because when the long term idle get pushed into a corner they get violent,all this rather than take a job that they have been offered :roll:

I have seen some of the inhabitants of this den of the witless,roaring drunk at 08:30 in the morning :roll: these people in my opinion should be whipped into shape and given work cleaning graffiti and chewing gum off the pavements etc etc.there is plenty they could be doing other than drinking and urinating in the street,if you do not live in such a town then you have no idea about the problems we have to deal with on a daily basis,youths hanging around intimidating people with their hoodies covering there faces,they hang around on street corners and when they leave,their working class related detritus is all over the place and it makes me sick,I have asked these "people" politely to take their rubbish with them only to have abuse thrown at me and to have to actively fight with them on several occasions as I am not one to back down when given abuse by those types of "people"/animals.

This is fact and in no way aimed at anyone on here,the work shy exist on mass in my town and it irrtates me rather alot :roll:


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:10 pm 
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marin man wrote:
Just to back up the work shy argument,I live in the most deprived town in the east,and our local jobcentre has at least four/five bouncers working there all the time,this is because when the long term idle get pushed into a corner they get violent,all this rather than take a job that they have been offered :roll:

I have seen some of the inhabitants of this den of the witless,roaring drunk at 08:30 in the morning :roll: these people in my opinion should be whipped into shape and given work cleaning graffiti and chewing gum off the pavements etc etc.there is plenty they could be doing other than drinking and urinating in the street,if you do not live in such a town then you have no idea about the problems we have to deal with on a daily basis,youths hanging around intimidating people with their hoodies covering there faces,they hang around on street corners and when they leave,their working class related detritus is all over the place and it makes me sick,I have asked these "people" politely to take their rubbish with them only to have abuse thrown at me and to have to actively fight with them on several occasions as I am not one to back down when given abuse by those types of "people"/animals.

This is fact and in no way aimed at anyone on here,the work shy exist on mass in my town and it irrtates me rather alot :roll:
Could it be that in the "most deprived town in the East" there is no work for these scroungers anyway? No work, no prospects, no hope; i think I'd be pissed at 8.30 am in that situation.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:13 pm 
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Then perhaps I was too touchy, but the public attack on the unemployed is very real, anyone who says when asked what they do and they reply unemployed comes in for verbal attack, just as if the public have been stirred up to believe the benefit claimants are the source of the all the problems in society. My pal, a Schizophrenic on long term sick in his honesty when asked replied such, the person whom we were talking to just changed and went for him shouting bloody scrounger, that is all I hear about, bloody scroungers. Now when you experience that, you come to form another opinnion. There have been other episodes as well, people in cars hurling abuse at claimants waiting outside the joke centres, and that seen by myself just walking past on the way to college.

Now as to the feckless, they exist, alcoholics, drug users, the homeless, I guess not one of them wants to be what they are, but are stuck, trapped in their addictions and mental health problems, anyone can find themselves there, for it doesn't take much to trip a person over the edge on a path to lingering self destruction. Depression is a cause, unemployment is a cause, what other causes are there, debt, marriage break up, ill health, the military even crime. Really, no one knows anyone elses story, what made them become what they are, so perhaps it is best to reserve judgement until one knows better, as what a person is might be something far away from what they were and have been through.

Youths, well of course they are all mouth when with others, but if they are of a similar type to the ilk I have come across, the type that destroyed my van, those whom I came later to learn they did what they did because it was there and I was stupid enough to respond to their actions, defending one's property is not allowed these days it seems, then I can understand peoples vitriol.

But it is a shame the government sees fit to cut the armed forces, for if it were the reverse and recruitment was down, compulsory national service would be of use, as there is no running to mummy, daddy the police or whoever when a RSM bawls the disrespectful into tears. From my experience, it is only the armed forces now that can and will take a scumbag and pulverise it only to build it up into a worthwhile human being a country can be proud of, for although times have changed in the forces, methods have changed, they are still more than capable and should be allowed to demonstrate their skills on the useless and dangerous.

But as to media, it is within my course of academic study, I am fully aware the news we read or get told might be very far from the truth, else why the different newspapers with their common readership, tories read the mail and telegraph, liberals read the guardian and labour the mirror and sun, why is this if it is not that newspapers pander to their readership's politics and there ensure an income for themselves.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:17 pm 
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suburbanreuben wrote:
Could it be that in the "most deprived town in the East" there is no work for these scroungers anyway? No work, no prospects, no hope; i think I'd be pissed at 8.30 am in that situation.


I understand this,it is my manor after all,but the "system" should give them something to do,like I said above,better than paying them to just laze about,at least if they were given some community based work when or if things improve then they will be used to working and not sitting on there collective backsides watching jeremy kyle etc......

I thouroughly agree with the national service argument as well,that is the only vestige of respect and discipline left in the country a the moment.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:31 pm 
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It's so upsetting to see such derision of one of our strongest PM's, post WWII, no PM has done more to shape and influence this country in such a positive manner, and thank christ she was there to keep Kinnock out of power......... :wink: :wink:

Christ I could be here all night, but closed minds can't be opened now, can they :roll: :roll: :x


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 22, 2010 10:34 pm 
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GT-Steve wrote:
It's so upsetting to see such derision of one of our strongest PM's, post WWII, no PM has done more to shape and influence this country in such a positive manner, and thank christ she was there to keep Kinnock out of power......... :wink: :wink:

Christ I could be here all night, but closed minds can't be opened now, can they :roll: :roll: :x


I cant believe it stevie....welcome and well met sir 8)

I thought with the red hair you would be labour type :lol: :lol:


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