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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 10:54 am 
rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:31 am
Posts: 392
Location: North Kent Coast UK
porschenut911 wrote:
Treated my trusty LP12 to a full dealer service, new limited edition plinth, new kore subchassis and stylus. Can't believe how good it sounds, its transformed it!


Ah the most famous of the Scottish turntables, very nice, is that an Ekos or a black Ittok?

Had more than a few different iterations of the veritable LP12 over the years, what's the rest of the system?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 11:53 am 
King of the Skip Monkeys
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Location: in the shed
allenh wrote:
legrandefromage wrote:
Valves and minidisk....

<walks away shaking head very slowly>

:lol:


No valves in that system silly, that's all transistor British cottage industry amplification made by a bearded man in shed at it's very best (apart from the teac minidisc obvs). Mind you have a you heard a Minidisc through valve amplification? It sounds surprisingly good for such a compressed medium.

You do need to get over this valve hate though and open your ears, Most music and audio people I know who don't like the sound of valves tend to be salesman who have been primed to discount all previous technology and push the latest and greatest eye wateringly expensive thing you didn't know you needed. That and those who haven't heard them yet.


There is no 'hate', dont put in words where there weren't any. I'd say stay away from salesmen if thats the impression you have.

Where I worked I was taught amplification should be just that and not colour anything being sent through it. Thats perfectly logical if you just want to listen to what is being played without 'hearing' the equipment. A crap source like a cheap CD player or worn needle/ record will always be crap no matter what the amplification, interconnects or speakers. Compressed audio cant be 'improved', it will always be compressed, sure the ear can be fooled but not for long if you happen to know a recording very well.

Also where I worked, every effort was made to make the then playback components as good as possible sometimes with not one but two leads from a CD transport so as well as the digital signal, the re-clocking information would be sent along too. But then a poorly mastered recording will always a be a poorly mastered recording whether it was tape, vinyl, CD, digital download and so on.

Source material was by far always the most important aspect of audio. I was always bemused by Hi-rez audio. A new old album coming out as high resolution - yet the source material couldn't possibly have all that extra range when the original equipment used to record/ master simply wasn't capable!

I was listening to an ABBA track in John Lewis via a Sonos speaker, all that bass! Where the original track wouldnt have been so pronounced, the equalisation curve and software within the Sonos was beavering away to make it as loud and as exciting as possible regardless of actual quality.

I also used to build prototype speakers including electrostatics. Just changing the finish of the tweeter surround would change the frequency response graph!

Anyway, the audio industry is nothing these days, ok vinyl has given a bit of a boost but it will never again be the bastion of men and teenagers in shops looking at piles of kit.

Do you want a Dolby with that?



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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 12:10 pm 
King of the Skip Monkeys
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Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 29704
Location: in the shed
As for 'high end' and expensive. The company I worked for sold 'item X'

Item X had a physical manufacturing unit cost of £998

Its retail price was £2300 which included the then VAT of 17.5%

Item X was sold to the retailer at around £1900. The 'profit' of £902 went into paying for transport, packaging, licenses for use of certain patents, business rates, wages and so on.

The dealer then had a bit of leeway for sales discount and as 'item X' had a slightly cheaper trade price than its nearby competitor, it would then also be in the dealers interest to sell more of 'item X' over the more expensive rival.

The goal of Item Xs' manufacturer was to enable the purchase of the best possible equipment without the sky high price tags of similar brands and establish an open and honest relationship with the customer and retailer.

Some retailers loved this, some markets loved this, especially Germany and Singapore but some very established old shops in the UK railed against it and as it was at the beginning of the internet age, it foresaw what was to become.

Equalise your graphics sir?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 6:28 pm 
rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Fri Jul 29, 2016 11:31 am
Posts: 392
Location: North Kent Coast UK
legrandefromage wrote:
allenh wrote:
legrandefromage wrote:
Valves and minidisk....

<walks away shaking head very slowly>

:lol:


No valves in that system silly, that's all transistor British cottage industry amplification made by a bearded man in shed at it's very best (apart from the teac minidisc obvs). Mind you have a you heard a Minidisc through valve amplification? It sounds surprisingly good for such a compressed medium.

You do need to get over this valve hate though and open your ears, Most music and audio people I know who don't like the sound of valves tend to be salesman who have been primed to discount all previous technology and push the latest and greatest eye wateringly expensive thing you didn't know you needed. That and those who haven't heard them yet.


There is no 'hate', dont put in words where there weren't any. I'd say stay away from salesmen if thats the impression you have.

Where I worked I was taught amplification should be just that and not colour anything being sent through it. Thats perfectly logical if you just want to listen to what is being played without 'hearing' the equipment. A crap source like a cheap CD player or worn needle/ record will always be crap no matter what the amplification, interconnects or speakers. Compressed audio cant be 'improved', it will always be compressed, sure the ear can be fooled but not for long if you happen to know a recording very well.

Also where I worked, every effort was made to make the then playback components as good as possible sometimes with not one but two leads from a CD transport so as well as the digital signal, the re-clocking information would be sent along too. But then a poorly mastered recording will always a be a poorly mastered recording whether it was tape, vinyl, CD, digital download and so on.

Source material was by far always the most important aspect of audio. I was always bemused by Hi-rez audio. A new old album coming out as high resolution - yet the source material couldn't possibly have all that extra range when the original equipment used to record/ master simply wasn't capable!

I was listening to an ABBA track in John Lewis via a Sonos speaker, all that bass! Where the original track wouldnt have been so pronounced, the equalisation curve and software within the Sonos was beavering away to make it as loud and as exciting as possible regardless of actual quality.

I also used to build prototype speakers including electrostatics. Just changing the finish of the tweeter surround would change the frequency response graph!

Anyway, the audio industry is nothing these days, ok vinyl has given a bit of a boost but it will never again be the bastion of men and teenagers in shops looking at piles of kit.

Do you want a Dolby with that?



Yep pretty much agree with everything you say there, we're obviously coming at the same coin from opposite sides. SiSo theory plays a very big part in audio but I have heard some very good remasters (not many admittedly) which all that says to me is that whoever did the original mastering was limited in what they could do be that technically or personally.

To me the source then followed by the speakers are the most important things in a playback chain and an amplifiers job is just to do exactly that but every amplifier colours the sound somewhat be that in the recording equipment, the playback equipment or many points in between. No coloration of any sort is a theoretical goal but ultimately technically futile

Sound like music is a very subjective thing. Like said it's different rather than better or worse and its which different you prefer. I've owned some technically superb amplifiers that I just didn't like the sound of, it didn't make them or me wrong it just meant I preferred something else.

What people who like the valve sound seem to like is a technical flaw that is actually harmonic distortion that people then perceive as what they term as warmth but still a technical flaw all the same. In the same way that the vinyl LP is technically inferior to the compact disc but one of its technical limitations in that you can't brickwall an LP master means that it will quite often sound comparatively better than the CD version, again a technical flaw.

I'm not sure when you worked in the industry or who you worked for but my dig a salesmen wasn't really a dig, I know a good few who are superb, the people I was referring to are the snake oil salesmen who to this day pepper the upper ends of the industry.

There was a very dark period a good few years ago where the industry didn't need to be parodied in that way becasue it was doing it to itself and then the salesmen of some high end manufactures and the hifi press in this country had a lot to answer for.

And sadly it is still in existence today in some quarters, £1000 power lead anyone? If the equipments PSU is that bad that anything better than a standard kettle lead makes a measurable difference to the sound then make sure you keep a fire extinguisher handy because that PSU isn't doing its job. As you say changing something that will have a physical effect on a sound wave like the material used in or the profile of a tweeter surround yes absolutely agree, or the tolerance of a passive component in a filter circuit yes, or even the specification of a simple op amp again yes those are measurable and provable.

Those figures you quote look pretty much where I'd expect, obviously you can dissect them further but no those seem right, I'm talking about people who buy an interconnect from China that the manufacturer can sell to me as a member of the public for £10 but who sells it with their logo on for £3500, superb profit but a bit naughty however you look at it.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:12 pm 
Retro Guru
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Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 12:12 pm
Posts: 2067
Location: Bournemouth
porschenut911 wrote:
Treated my trusty LP12 to a full dealer service, new limited edition plinth, new kore subchassis and stylus. Can't believe how good it sounds, its transformed it!


Stunning!
An LP12 is on my wish list. One day...
I have a Linn Axis which I bought secondhand in about 2002, with the Basik arm. Great deck and has given me good service for the £100 I paid.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:14 pm 
GOLD | PoTM | Rider | rBOTM
GOLD | PoTM | Rider | rBOTM
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:26 pm
Posts: 23094
Location: 54 Festive Road Winchcombe GLOUCS Yarp...
Doris Stokes in a box.









Compressed medium.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:16 pm 
Gold Trader
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Joined: Fri Aug 20, 2010 11:28 am
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Location: Gorleston-on-sea (If there is a bright center to the universe this is place furthest from it
The History Man wrote:
Doris Stokes in a box.









Compressed medium.


Left field as always :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:16 pm 
GOLD | PoTM | Rider | rBOTM
GOLD | PoTM | Rider | rBOTM
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Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2013 6:26 pm
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Location: 54 Festive Road Winchcombe GLOUCS Yarp...
My Rega was owned by Bruce Foxton.




It’s been heavily modded.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:34 pm 
King of the Skip Monkeys
King of the Skip Monkeys

Joined: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:34 pm
Posts: 29704
Location: in the shed
My amp was owned by Peter Stevens.






It keeps racing away


Last edited by legrandefromage on Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2018 7:43 pm 
Gold Trader
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Posts: 7277
Location: Gorleston-on-sea (If there is a bright center to the universe this is place furthest from it
The History Man wrote:
My Rega was owned by Bruce Foxton.




It’s been heavily modded.


My tape deck was owned by Rick buckler






It's Jammed


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