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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 7:23 am 
Dirt Disciple
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My E2 had a bridge, I remember because one of the first things I noticed about my E3 when it arrived was the of bridge.

The welding on my E2 was rubbish, which is why it cracked.

The welds on the E3 were more like 'fish scales' compated to the E2. I reckon it's an early E2, some old Orange's has 1.25 head tubes. I've had one at some point but can't remember the model! Orange had a habit of swapping in 'left overs' and still do on prototypes


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:06 am 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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mr_skinny wrote:
My E2 had a bridge, I remember because one of the first things I noticed about my E3 when it arrived was the of bridge.

The welding on my E2 was rubbish, which is why it cracked.

The welds on the E3 were more like 'fish scales' compated to the E2. I reckon it's an early E2, some old Orange's has 1.25 head tubes. I've had one at some point but can't remember the model! Orange had a habit of swapping in 'left overs' and still do on prototypes


If it was and early one it wouldn't have an "A5" prefix, which implies it was made in 1995. I don't think they were making E2s that late on. My E2 had an "A3" prefix, and no other letters in the frame number.

Regarding the head tubes, it went like this as far as I know: Elite was 1.25", E2 was 1.0" and E3 was 1.125".

Cheers,
Andrew


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 11:46 am 
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Old Orange's were a nightmare....my E2 was a 1" head set, but so too was my E3 - when the E2 cracked my Pace RC-35s went straight onto the E3 without any conversion. Some E3s had a canti hanger on the wish bone seat stay whilst others had a noodle around the top of the seat tube. It was definitely what Orange had lying around at the time which is probably why they've given up keeping any records pre '98 - nothing was particularly standardised - I'm still trying to work out the ID of my Vit T2 seat tube!

As the the 1.125" head set became the 'industry standard' E3s will have started as 1" and moved to 1.125". It was only after my E3 cracked and I got a UFO that I had to get a new crown for my forks as the larger OD steerer wouldn't fit.

It's only a hunch but I think this fella's E2 is an early one, with a head tube from the spares pile after the Elite was discontinued - the serial numbers can tell you a lot about a frame but some of the numbers on my Vit T2 remain a mystery too.

It's a shame most of the people on this forum know more about early Orange frames than Orange do themselves - probably due to Orange staff from BITD not being at the factory now. It's business like anything else - you may have a classic Ferrari or Mercedes but I doubt getting in touch with the companies for info on your car would achieve much these days... except for maybe Aston Martin ;-)


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 2:13 pm 
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Thanks for all the info folks.
Just going back about the serial number issue my 93 clockwork also has a letter A in the middle of the number.

A309A0131


Attachments:
93 clockwork.JPG
93 clockwork.JPG [ 167.97 KiB | Viewed 243 times ]
clocky serial no.JPG
clocky serial no.JPG [ 75.42 KiB | Viewed 243 times ]


Last edited by emjay on Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:16 pm 
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mr_skinny wrote:
Old Orange's were a nightmare....my E2 was a 1" head set, but so too was my E3 - when the E2 cracked my Pace RC-35s went straight onto the E3 without any conversion. Some E3s had a canti hanger on the wish bone seat stay whilst others had a noodle around the top of the seat tube. It was definitely what Orange had lying around at the time which is probably why they've given up keeping any records pre '98 - nothing was particularly standardised - I'm still trying to work out the ID of my Vit T2 seat tube!

As the the 1.125" head set became the 'industry standard' E3s will have started as 1" and moved to 1.125". It was only after my E3 cracked and I got a UFO that I had to get a new crown for my forks as the larger OD steerer wouldn't fit.

It's only a hunch but I think this fella's E2 is an early one, with a head tube from the spares pile after the Elite was discontinued - the serial numbers can tell you a lot about a frame but some of the numbers on my Vit T2 remain a mystery too.

It's a shame most of the people on this forum know more about early Orange frames than Orange do themselves - probably due to Orange staff from BITD not being at the factory now. It's business like anything else - you may have a classic Ferrari or Mercedes but I doubt getting in touch with the companies for info on your car would achieve much these days... except for maybe Aston Martin ;-)

I think you are right on these points. I suppose in the early days, if they had customer orders to fulfill, they would do what they could to produce the bikes, which would include non-standard production of the frames. I have seen an article about the early days of Pace and there is an inference that they had similar problems. They produced the first prototype RC100 and were surprised by the positive reactions they received. So imagine the chaos in their workshop trying to fulfill the masses of orders they got.

My E3 has a noodle behind the seat tube and it looks as ugly as sin, compared to neat canti hangers. Its also a devil to try and clean/polish.

It does not surprise me that the members of RB know more about the early bikes than the manufactures do. Because RB is a specialised site (no pun or advert intended!) generally dealing with pre-1998 MTB's, the amount of members coupled with their age and the amount of different bikes they have run over the years, along with the experience they have had in maintaining and upgrading their steeds means there is a hell of a wealth of knowledge within the site when taken as a whole.

The past models is an area most manufacturers have forgotten about, especially if the old guard of workers have left/retired and new younger workers come in. The manufacturers have a tendency to look forward at the next innovation/trend for the coming year, to keep up with the competition, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but good production methods and frame styles can be lost in the rush for "advancement".

One thing that has always amused me is that you could buy, for example, a 1997 P7 with full 1997 XT groupset in the middle of 1996!


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 05, 2013 9:19 pm 
MacRetro rider
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mr_skinny wrote:
It's business like anything else - you may have a classic Ferrari or Mercedes but I doubt getting in touch with the companies for info on your car would achieve much these days... except for maybe Aston Martin ;-)


Off topic but Mercedes are actually astonishing for stuff like that. I'm a bit of a classic car nut and read a story about a restoration of a late 50s Mercedes that the owner wanted to keep as much original as he could. He had no keys so got in touch with Mercedes with the chassis number and they sent him a new set of door and ignition keys free of charge. I doubt any other car company in the world could do that.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 5:21 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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emjay wrote:
Thanks for all the info folks.
Just going back about the serial number issue my 93 clockwork also has a letter A in the middle of the number.



Just to muddy the waters even more, that's not a 93 Clockwork. More like a 89 or 90 with those frame details and decals.

I was told my old Vit T was one of the only original Vit's with a 1 1/8th head tube so the alu bike could be an E2. Orange tended to change certain details on each production run so early 199X bikes often had slight differences to the later 199X frames.

My guess would be they changed the E2 a few times to try and cure the problems but gave up in the end and produced the E3.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:54 pm 
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Thanks for the info brocklanders. It looks like i may have 2 bikes with an identity crisis!


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:00 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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emjay wrote:
Thanks for the info brocklanders. It looks like i may have 2 bikes with an identity crisis!


On the contrary and merely to clarify Edd's comment above, you've got a frame of considerable "interest" and the definitive article from the defining moment in Orange (clockwork) history 8)

if I was searching for a Clockie one like yours would be top of my list :)

And :arrow:


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 07, 2013 8:15 pm 
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OH don't get me wrong i'm really chuffed that it could be an 89/90. its just that i thought i understood the serial number dating system of the Oranges and assumed it was a 'sept 93', judging by the serial number.

Just another thing regarding both my clockwork and the E2? serial numbers. They both have an 'A' stamped in the middle, is this unusual?.


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