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Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=259673

Author:  ajantom [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

So, had an interesting off today.

Picture the end of a trail where it hits a fire road (Haldon red down near the black section if you need to know), I come down off it and at the last moment realise that a) some trail maintenance has been done by putting in a large stone that feeds you further left, and b) 2 riders have put there bikes down directly in the run-out from the new line of the trail.
Cue me shouting SH*T very loudly and skidding into their bikes.

I'm ok apart from a twisted ankle and a ripped grip, but one of their bikes has a properly tacoed rim where I hit it.

After a few choice words on each side. Me - what a daft place to leave your bikes. Him - you were going too fast and should buy me a new wheel. Our tempers calmed and I offered to fix his wheel with a spare rim I have in the attic.

So whose fault would you say it was? Not too bothered, but I do feel that the onus should be on someone to make sure their bike isn't blocking the trail, and expect people to be doing a fair speed, even if you wouldn't be.

Author:  teethgrinder [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Theirs for blocking the trail. Deserve everything they get, the ignorant ****.

Author:  FluffyChicken [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:46 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Both.

theirs for putting a bike in a stupid place. (it's not against the law though)
yours for going too fast so you couldn't stop in time of need or before the trail ends.

In terms of an insurance claim I wouldn't have the foggiest. I would side with them as you were the one moving, never assume a trail is safe so the onus is with you. Though the trail builder could be brought in to for not putting a notice up the trail ahead has been altered (if it was recent) and not putting warnings at the 'run off' to keep it clear.

I would just call it an incident.

Author:  daugs [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 9:48 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

without all details but playing devil's advocate, if it was cars on a road, and one was stationary but parked badly on a blind spot and you ran into it, whose fault would it be ? do you not have a responsibility to be able to brake in the distance you can see ?

Author:  careful now [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:32 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Someone was prosecuted recently for causing death by dangerous parking,so on that basis I'd tell him to shove his rim.

Author:  zetecmk2 [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:38 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

if you was on a heavy appollo, you wouldn't have been able to stop, so no heated exchange.....your fault!!
of he had an appollo...you'd be in a world of shit!!! (and a coma) :lol:

Author:  careful now [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 10:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

http://www.keepmeontheroad.co.uk/blog/d ... r-comment/

link^,it's dangerous driving to park stupidly,although you should always be able to stop before or avoid,any obstacle.

Author:  ajantom [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:00 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

I'm sitting on the fence.....I do feel a bit guilty, and will happily fix his rim, as it will only take an hour or so.
In my defence, it's a trail I've ridden probably 100+ times, and if the new line wasn't there all would have been ok. I do know the guys who do trail maintenance up there, so will have a word about putting up a sign.

Author:  Ductape [ Sun Jun 09, 2013 11:51 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Crappy situation and certainly I feel for you. It's something I would be guilty of, but in the end, going too fast I believe you should have been able to stop and avoid the bikes. Be glad it wasn't a person. Hopefully since it was the end it didn't mess up your Strava time. :P

Author:  Barneyballbags [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

My initial gut reaction would be that it's their fault for leaving their bikes laying down on a mountain bike trail where, by it's very nature, people would be riding mountain bikes. Especially so on a red/black run where people will naturally be riding faster.

Unless they had a very good reason for their bikes to be there (ie. if they'd both fallen off them), then there's no excuse. If you're not riding your bike on a trail, move it to one side so that others can. You wouldn't just park your car in the middle of the road, so why should it be any different if you're out riding..? It's selfish and it ruins it for others.

You could argue that ajantom was riding too quickly, but then again he was on a red run which is designed for that very purpose so I don't think he's doing anything wrong. It's the two ar*ehats who decided to create the temporary roadblock which is the problem here.

Personally I think the guy is lucky to get away with a taco'd rim and not a taco'd nose.

Author:  The History Man [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:08 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

When I used to ski same kind of principle applied. Don't go/stop near or hang about on black runs because of high speeds and expertise. Similarly don't go screaming across the nursery slopes. Is there a trail code a bit like highway mixed with countryside type guidance?

Author:  Barneyballbags [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

The History Man wrote:
When I used to ski same kind of principle applied. Don't go/stop near or hang about on black runs because of high speeds and expertise. Similarly don't go screaming across the nursery slopes.


Exactly - common sense!

Author:  FluffyChicken [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Barneyballbags wrote:
My initial gut reaction would be that it's their fault for leaving their bikes laying down on a mountain bike trail where, by it's very nature, people would be riding mountain bikes. Especially so on a red/black run where people will naturally be riding faster.

Unless they had a very good reason for their bikes to be there (ie. if they'd both fallen off them), then there's no excuse. If you're not riding your bike on a trail, move it to one side so that others can. You wouldn't just park your car in the middle of the road, so why should it be any different if you're out riding..? It's selfish and it ruins it for others.

You could argue that ajantom was riding too quickly, but then again he was on a red run which is designed for that very purpose so I don't think he's doing anything wrong. It's the two ar*ehats who decided to create the temporary roadblock which is the problem here.

Personally I think the guy is lucky to get away with a taco'd rim and not a taco'd nose.

Being a red run is not a screaming fast run, the slightly more experienced but still learning will be on them. Black is a different matter. But that was not part of the initial topic.

Many 'trail centre' red runs end on paths, fire roads etc. You can never expect them to be clear.

It could easily be somebody just getting off their bike, walking across etc.

Unfortunately other people use them, if no rules of conduct are given by the owners then how are they to know, they're learning. It's just an accident.

The car example is not the same, cars owners have rules they are suppose to follow even as to how and where to park. Many choose to not follow them, the code of conducts are there for all to read.

Author:  Barneyballbags [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

FluffyChicken wrote:
Being a red run is not a screaming fast run, the slightly more experienced but still learning will be on them.


All the more reason not to leave your bike laying across the trail then, surely.

Author:  Chopper1192 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Would they lay their bikes down on a road, or a regular cycle path? So what makes them think it's any more acceptable here.

A lesson for you in this as well. Regardless of the status of the trail and your perceived righteousness in flying down it as.fast as you like, being able to stop in the distance you can see, just like in a car is not a bad idea. Moral righteousness means nothing when a deer runs across the trail, or a rider steps out from the.bushes where he'd stopped for a pish.

It's like roadies who get swiped off by cars - screaming "it was my right of way" while the ambo crew admire the shin bone sticking out your leg isn't going to change much for you.

Author:  ajantom [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:29 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Believe me, the lesson is learnt. I ache all over today, especially my right Achilles tendon :(
One does get a bit complacent on regular trails, so a reminder of what can go wrong is good sometimes. Luckily no serious damage was done.

Author:  Chopper1192 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 10:45 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

My Dad flies and he reckons any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Author:  stevet1 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Totally their fault. I can't believe this is even a discussion. I've had this at sets of trails, skateparks etc and its just down to ignorance on their behalf. If I had to be able to stop in the distance I could see ahead most of the black trails at trail centres would be redundant.

I would have the opposite view if this was out in the countryside on a bridleway though.

Author:  Mindmap3 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

I don't know the trail but its a tough one. Assuming that you knew it ended on a path open to the wider public one could say that you should have been slowing down just in case. On the other hand, to leave your bikes at the exit of a trail is pretty darn stupid.

It always amazes me where people think it is a good idea to stop. A few weeks ago a biggish group stopped at the top of a climb at Cannock and blocked the entire trail. The main offender didn't even move when his mate told him that someone was coming up it! Asshat.

Those rocks were probably there as a way to slow people down to stop is sort of thing happening. Places like Cannock and Dalby seem pretty good at putting obstacles or very tight turns in at these intersections.

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:21 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Fortunately it wasn't a toddler.

Author:  Barneyballbags [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:29 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

highlandsflyer wrote:
Fortunately it wasn't a toddler.


I'd be pretty concerned if someone was riding a toddler down the red route in the first place, let alone parked it in the middle of the trail :shock:

Author:  Tazio [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

To be honest it sounds a bit 50/50 to me. You should perhaps been a bit more cautious and they should have been a bit more aware.

Author:  FluffyChicken [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:59 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Barneyballbags wrote:
highlandsflyer wrote:
Fortunately it wasn't a toddler.


I'd be pretty concerned if someone was riding a toddler down the red route in the first place, let alone parked it in the middle of the trail :shock:


You forget, we all do not know the trail in question. I assume the end is a public path/fireroad as per other trail centres I've been to.

I also did not say I would leave my bike across a trail (in this instance it wasn't on the trail, but after the end of it ?).

Would they lay their bikes down on a road, or a regular cycle path? So what makes them think it's any more acceptable here
People tend not to lay them across a road, it does happen at the sides and people do stop in the middle of them.
I have plowed into cyclists at the bottom of one of our roads around, we hit 50mph down just before that end section. All of us, both groups, on MTB's. The corner is blind and no one in their right mind would usually stop there. But people did, I now always slow before that section, I learnt my lesson, as did they.
Luckily we hit them a bit slower due to rapid braking but it was a bit of a mess for us at the front.

People do lay them across cycle paths as they are treated more like footpaths.

Author:  gtRTSdh [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 5:54 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Sorry to hear that Tom, it's totally their fault for being morons & leaving their bikes in the trail.

Fix the wheel & be done with, it's not worth the hassle of any repercussions for what it's going to cost you especially as you're known by the trail builders & no doubt you've exchanged details.

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

So these bikes were actually on the red route? I misunderstood.

One thing that gets on my breasts is the downhill nutters who come off the hills up here and carry on riding down to their cars as though everyone else should get out of their way.

There are no parts of the mountains or woods that are set aside purely for bikes, and everyone has a responsibility to consider other users.

In the circumstances I would have been well pissed at people leaving their bikes in such a reckless way.

Sounds like no real damage done, so smiles all round.

Author:  Chopper1192 [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 7:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

stevet1 wrote:
If I had to be able to stop in the distance I could see ahead most of the black trails at trail centres would be redundant

Mate of mine came off at Chavsterley last year after hurtling round a corner and hitting, of all things, a large Fox. Broke both his wrists. Riding faster than you can see is the sort of thing that gets you a Darwin award.

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Well you can't allow for things like foxes, deer, etc. You just wouldn't take any speed going through anything, and even then they can run into you.

I suppose a fox with broken wrists is pretty well knackered, unless the RSPCA can sort it out.

Author:  ajantom [ Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:05 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Chopper1192 wrote:
stevet1 wrote:
If I had to be able to stop in the distance I could see ahead most of the black trails at trail centres would be redundant

Mate of mine came off at Chavsterley last year after hurtling round a corner and hitting, of all things, a large Fox. Broke both his wrists. Riding faster than you can see is the sort of thing that gets you a Darwin award.


But we all do it at some point - otherwise where's the thrill?
Not saying it's right, and a pootle ride has it's place (just been on one in fact)........but sometimes I feel the need, the need for speed :wink:

I tend to be a lot more careful on shared usage trails, i.e. bridleways, and especially anything 'cheeky'. But you kind of expect a designated bike trail be ok.

Quote:
So these bikes were actually on the red route? I misunderstood.


Just at the end of the trail, where it meets the fire road - probably about 10/15ft - but in a direct line with the new trail end. Everyone comes off this particular trail fast and uses the fireroad as a run out.

Author:  FluffyChicken [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 5:43 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Fire road would be shared usage, e.g forest commision cars, trucks could be on their, let alone people walking or generally riding a bike (if anything like dalby, sherwood)
Iirc all dalby are blanked off at the end and a some slow down area/chicane is used before hand.
I would say the trail builders are at fault for creating a hazard area ;).

Author:  Chopper1192 [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

highlandsflyer wrote:
I suppose a fox with broken wrists is pretty well knackered, unless the RSPCA can sort it out.

Nearly choked on my cornflakes for laughing! :lol:

Author:  Grannygrinder [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 6:50 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

There's.
If the area of the incident/accident is indeed a 'run off/out area' and there bikes prevented this run off area to be used the only option, as i see it, was to run off/out over there bikes :D
Very decent of you to repair his wheel :wink: is he gonna help mend your ankle? :lol:

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

FluffyChicken wrote:
Fire road would be shared usage, e.g forest commision cars, trucks could be on their, let alone people walking or generally riding a bike (if anything like dalby, sherwood)
Iirc all dalby are blanked off at the end and a some slow down area/chicane is used before hand.
I would say the trail builders are at fault for creating a hazard area ;).


Got to agree with that.

Author:  We_are_Stevo [ Tue Jun 11, 2013 11:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

People do stupid things, cyclists probably more than most...

...it sounds to me like the end of the trail has been modified to stop people hammering out into the fire road inconsiderately?

50/50

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

I concur.

We have a number of problems like this on our local trails, where serious downhill runs fly over long established paths.

Luckily a lot of our trails are free of woods, so visibility tends to be good far ahead.

Still get some idiots who have a heads down mentality as if they were in a velodrome.

Over time these issues tend to get ironed out, but there is potential for catastrophe where a downhiller is coming across or onto a path where people are hiking or chilling out generally.

Author:  ajantom [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 8:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Fixed his wheel, and while I was at it adjusted the cones and greased the bearings - couldn't leave a tight/graunchy hub alone, could I? :lol:
He said he was going to ride it today. So hopefully it stayed true!

Oh and p.s. I rode the same trail yesterday, and even though no-one was around I slowed down considerably for the end :wink:

Author:  FluffyChicken [ Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:55 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Crash on a ride today - who's at fault?

Good man on the hub :)

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