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Carbon or Titanium... the impossible choice.
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=207467

Author:  IWish [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 12:52 am ]
Post subject:  Carbon or Titanium... the impossible choice.

So I'm looking at buying a new bike. Something I can live with all the time. Right now I am looking at a longish travel carbon on one 456 or whippet maybe. Or a Titanium modern bike.

I'm looking at disc brakes and I'm not sure what else I'd want. I wouldn't mind a chainstay brake mount though over seatstay.

Id be running a 1-2x9 setup but there's nothing else to know I think. Oh, besides my budget. I'm looking at a £1,000 top spend. Id be buying the carbon frame new from on one unless I get a better suggestion at £300, titanium I'd be happy to buy used.

Author:  cyfa2809 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:02 am ]
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I think chainstay brake mounts are fiddly and awkward to space out if it can be done at all.

Titanium is forgiving and flexi to an extent where as carbon is harsh and unforgiving i believe (could be dependent on weave though, havent looked into it much).

Carbon is fragile but as you know is a good weight where as ti will be able to take more general scrapes and whatnot.

I dont think weight is an issue between the 2.

Author:  lumos2000 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:29 am ]
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nice ti voodoo in the for sale 98 section :wink:

Author:  A_Venables [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 1:29 am ]
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Ive riden Carbon, Aluminium and steel, but not Titanium. I find the Carbon lovely and a softer ride than Alu and less trail chatter. I do use a suspension seatpost - same on all but the full sus. But the carbon just feels nice, cant explain it, easier to ride with. Alot of how a carbon feels is aparently to do with the way the carbon weaves are layered together so different carbon frames may feel different. Im happy with my Giant MCM Team. If I were to push the bike with really rocky terrain and a nutter of a riding style Im not sure how much Id trust it though after all the storys you hear. A big question is how hard would you ride the bike? Big drops? jumps? etc? Im not sure I would trust the carbon if your doing big drops, jumps, etc? I dont do jumps, etc atleast not big enough to worry about.

Author:  IWish [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:21 am ]
Post subject: 

Good info so far guys, not sure I like the voodoo though. Prefer the airborne I was offered a few days ago.

Also saw a ti 456 listed that I'm going to look into in the morning.

Author:  gtRTSdh [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:45 pm ]
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Carbon just doesn't require the same level of craftsmanship as Titanium, and as above a Ti frame should be considered a lifetime frame. I don't think anyone thinks that about carbon.

there's a video on pinkbike at santa cruz of testing a carbon Vs Aluminum frame to destruction, which showed the carbon frame to be stronger, albeit I think carbon is more succetible to massive failure from knocks and scrathes.

Ps

www.bustedcarbon.com

Think I'll stick with my Ti Xizang!!!

Author:  dyna-ti [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 2:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ti

Carbon is too fragile.A bad scrape on Ti or alloy isnt too much of a problem but on carbon it allows moisture to penetrate into the fabric of it.That can lead to sudden and catastrophic failure.
Carbon doesnt show up on Xrays so ive the worst happens and you come into contact with the broken bits there they are likely to stay :? or working their way through and deeper.

The people you see riding carbon are the ones that dont own the bike so a damaged frame can be replaced at no cost to them.Its highly unlikely you would see them riding a scraped one on the race circuit and lets also note they dont fall off as much as we do :oops:

Carbon for roadies or pro riders in mountainbiking.Everyday usage or even just offroad then id stick to Ti :?
IMHO of course :)

Author:  IWish [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

The price difference is a factor too. I very rarely ride and pretty much never in anger. Mainly street too so I'm not worried ill break it on anything stupid. Most other components will probably be metal though. It depends on cost v strength.

Author:  poweredbypies [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:24 pm ]
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I would go for ti. Will last near enough for ever no rust no corrosion no nasty splinters if you ever do manage to snap a frame.

Author:  cyfa2809 [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 3:26 pm ]
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I was told that carbon tends to absorb impacts (in the strands in the weave i presume) and then goes BANG and shatters into millions of tiny wittle pieces.

Author:  al [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 6:17 pm ]
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My question is...

Why the bloody hell would anyone choose to buy a big ugly moulded and glued nasty looking bit of tat over a Ti frame?

al. :?

Author:  SiRvInO [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

Carbon frames win Olympic medals!!!!

I've had loads of carbon over the years dating back to early 1990's, it's very strong and doesnt rust...

You will get a better frame in carbon for the price over titanium...On one , Giant etc, carbon does absorb vibration, but still a stiff ride, fast though!!

Author:  IWish [ Sun Jun 17, 2012 10:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

Looking at the On One 456, but I know they do both a Carbon and Ti version...

But if I got the Ti one I'd only want the Lynksey one as I think it looks better than the VN one.

Author:  IbocProSX [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:22 am ]
Post subject: 

Good question, I didn't figure it out. Now I have both :roll: .

FWIW For a 456 type bike I'd go with steel, such a selection from small manufacturers.

FWIW 2: Many of the carbon sceptics would take a steel bike down the trail without thinking. In the flesh I've seen more broken steel frames than carbon ones. A mate's Stumpjumper downtube came apart mid ride right next to me. Could not believe how thin the wall was, and razor sharp at the edges of the failure. YMMV

Enjoy!!

Author:  cyfa2809 [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 12:28 am ]
Post subject: 

Carbon is at a point now where it can be trusted for sure, but still needs more carefulness than others.
It still has the stigma though which it shouldnt.

Author:  hamster [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:26 am ]
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Carbon will break if you crash it heavily, Ti might survive. I've seen people write carbon road frames off by crashing on slippery roundabouts.

However, a really well-engineered and fabricated carbon frame will be lighter, more comfortable and stiff in all the right places.

You pay your money and take your pick. I have a Ti Litespeed road bike that's 18 years old and looks like new.

Author:  trek_y [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:57 am ]
Post subject: 

Titanium +1 :wink:

Titanium frames hold their value, carbon doesn't so well. It doesn't rust or have paint or laquer to chip and if you scratch it then a buff with a Scotchbrite pad has it looking tidy again. An old carbon frame looks like an old carbon frame !

But....

£300 will buy you a very light frame in carbon ~ 1kg wheras Ti will be more like 1.6kg but having owned both there is just something about the Ti which feels better despite the extra weight. IMHO of course.

Author:  Russell [ Mon Jun 18, 2012 1:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

I read somewhere that carbon bike frames are responsible for global warming and that at night, they come alive and feed on babies.

They also are known to spontaneously explode and have been used by terrorists as IEDs.

Author:  Neil G [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 12:43 am ]
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Another vote for Ti here, really not a fan of plastic bikes :D

Author:  dyna-ti [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:02 am ]
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The word from the bikey circuit is Titanium :wink:

Author:  Bullpup [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:51 am ]
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I have never ridden a carbon bike but I have seen too many expensive fishing rods break by an inadvertant and seemingly innocent knock.

You can repair titanium.

Author:  Russell [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:34 pm ]
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dyna-ti wrote:
The word from the bikey circuit is Titanium :wink:


Which is why more than half of the top 20 (UCI) DH riders this year are on carbon frames right?

Author:  IWish [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:40 pm ]
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I have made the decision, I know what I'm buying but I value the opinions given and took it all into account before I made my choice.

Author:  Russell [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:52 pm ]
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Go on, go on! Whaddya buy?

Author:  IWish [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:01 pm ]
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Not bought yet, but buying. :wink: I went with Carbon, the Ti was going to cost quite a bit more. Plus the different component choices as I had plans for both materials.

Author:  saltyman [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have owned some nice Ti bikes and a couple of nice carbon framed bikes...

I'm a heavy dude, not a technical rider but can at times have a bit fun and treat a bike to a hard ride, never had an issue with either materials, in frames or components.

Both bikes will be stiff and light, the Ti absorbs shocks without you knowing it, but then again, carbon isn't as harsh as aluminium I found.

If your not a massive keen rider, either is a good choice, go with a decent budget though, exotic frames can vary hugely, from £400 to £5,000 with my experience, but can often ride similar!

They have to be mated with decent spec kit to get the most from them, otherwise you might as well have a decent steel frame.

Author:  ajantom [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:11 pm ]
Post subject: 

This would've ticked all the boxes.....
http://www.rideon.co.uk/shop/ViewProduct.aspx?productId=709

Image

Ti frame with carbon top-tube and seat-stays 8)

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

Russell wrote:
dyna-ti wrote:
The word from the bikey circuit is Titanium :wink:


Which is why more than half of the top 20 (UCI) DH riders this year are on carbon frames right?


I don't reckon that is particularly on point.

Those bikes get fettled to the max, wrapped in cotton wool and looked over by experts, if they are re-used. Not thrown into the back of landies with the pram and golf clubs, loaned to mates for a burn or chained up to lamp posts.

Horses for courses.

Carbon really is not resilient when compared to Ti.

I ride carbon, but I don't trust a full carbon frame any further than I can throw one. Being fair that is quite far as I am quite a tosser.

Author:  IWish [ Thu Jun 21, 2012 9:41 pm ]
Post subject: 

ajantom wrote:
This would've ticked all the boxes.....
http://www.rideon.co.uk/shop/ViewProduct.aspx?productId=709

Image

Ti frame with carbon top-tube and seat-stays 8)


Very appealing, and then you see the extra number at the end of the price

Author:  Russell [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:07 am ]
Post subject: 

I can find numerous examples of broken titanium 456 frames, including at least one on this forum.

I've been unable to find one broken carbon 456.

Considering it is so less resilient and more fragile, thats odd... don't you think?

Author:  IWish [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 9:18 am ]
Post subject: 

Must admit I've found a few broken 456 inbreds. A few VN but no lynksey.

Only one possible cracked 456 though. On the bottom of the down tube head tube joint. Looked like it was a laquer only mark.

Author:  JamesM [ Sat Jun 23, 2012 11:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Carbon or Titanium... the impossible choice.

IWish wrote:
So I'm looking at buying a new bike. Something I can live with all the time.


It has to be titanium then, you can't make traffic lights change with a carbon bike!!! :lol:

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 12:16 am ]
Post subject: 

Russell wrote:
I can find numerous examples of broken titanium 456 frames, including at least one on this forum.

I've been unable to find one broken carbon 456.

Considering it is so less resilient and more fragile, thats odd... don't you think?


So we can assume that your subjective analysis overrides a general consensus?

I was not referring to specific frames, was I?

Now make a valid comparison if you can.

Jeez.

Author:  dbmtb [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

I've never owned a carbon MTB so can't comment.

I've ridden a few and been underwhelmed though - but how much of it is to do with the material and how much is to do with the rest of the bike - I couldn't possibly say.

You don't see many broken ti frames because not many people buy them. The opposite is true of carbon. I have also seen plenty of broken steel and alloy frames in my life.

But the environmental issue is worth considering (says the owner of 2 carbon road bikes and umpteen Pace forks!)

Author:  IWish [ Mon Jun 25, 2012 11:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

I'm not sure how much damage the environment will get from one more frame. Espescially when you consider the goodness for it with cycling. :wink:

Author:  Russell [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:32 am ]
Post subject: 

highlandsflyer wrote:
Russell wrote:
I can find numerous examples of broken titanium 456 frames, including at least one on this forum.

I've been unable to find one broken carbon 456.

Considering it is so less resilient and more fragile, thats odd... don't you think?


So we can assume that your subjective analysis overrides a general consensus?

I was not referring to specific frames, was I?

Now make a valid comparison if you can.

Jeez.


You might not have been considering specific frames but the OP was, and my point was directed at him, not you.

He is mulling between a carbon and a titanium 456.

Some have raised the point that they believe carbon to be less resilient or more fragile.

I merely pointed out that the titanium version of the frame appears to be the more fragile or less resilient, given the (albeit, subjective and anecdotal evidence) view of users on the 'net.

There are lots of people that don't like carbon frames, and plenty more that don't like On-One. You would think that if the carbon 456 was prone to breakage, people would be posting pictures and gloating or you would be able to find numerous examples of broken frames very quickly... you can't.

When discussing carbon vs titanium, I'm not sure how much more valid a comparison you can make than between two frames, designed by the same person, with identical geometry with the same type of use in mind.

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 12:47 am ]
Post subject: 

Thanks for the clarification. Apology most humbly proffered.

Not the first time I have grabbed the wrong end of the stick.

Author:  AndyPA [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 9:59 am ]
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I spray a lot of carbon frames and I can honestly say from experience after a seasons use they look battered compared to steel and Titanium

Author:  Neil G [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 1:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

AndyPA wrote:
I spray a lot of carbon frames and I can honestly say from experience after a seasons use they look battered compared to steel and Titanium


Yep, had some Noir carbon cranks and they looked s**t even after a few muddy rides.

Carbon 456 newer than the Ti version so surely impossible to compare the breakages of the two.

Personally I'd save up and go high end steel over either.

Author:  Russell [ Tue Jun 26, 2012 3:40 pm ]
Post subject: 

Neil G wrote:
AndyPA wrote:
I spray a lot of carbon frames and I can honestly say from experience after a seasons use they look battered compared to steel and Titanium


Yep, had some Noir carbon cranks and they looked s**t even after a few muddy rides.

Carbon 456 newer than the Ti version so surely impossible to compare the breakages of the two.

Personally I'd save up and go high end steel over either.


The c456 has been around for two years or more now, more than long enough for harder users to break a few and for the haters to say 'I told you so'.

Author:  Neil G [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 1:26 pm ]
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Obviously not that many people buying them then, maybe they're worried about low end carbon letting go?

Author:  Dickyboy [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 2:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

For cosmetic longevity it has to be Ti surely? Can only imagine what a carbon MTB frame would look like after 5 or more years use.

To be honest if I was buying again now, I'd more than likely go for decent steel instead of Ti or Carbon.

Author:  oaklec [ Wed Jun 27, 2012 7:31 pm ]
Post subject: 

Carbon bike frame? Scary.

Ok for mudguards and car dashboard trim I guess, but sit on it and ride it when gravity has got the better of me?

Besides, you can't even decorate it with fridge magnets

Author:  Neil G [ Thu Jun 28, 2012 12:38 am ]
Post subject: 

Dickyboy wrote:
For cosmetic longevity it has to be Ti surely? Can only imagine what a carbon MTB frame would look like after 5 or more years use.

To be honest if I was buying again now, I'd more than likely go for decent steel instead of Ti or Carbon.


+1

I think a high end steel frame has got to be better than a low rent carbon frame.

Ti is amazing stuff, keeps it's looks over the years no matter how much abuse. My 93 Hei Hei proved that, still looks new even after all this time!

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