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Rear mech pulling the wrong way?
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=206148

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Rear mech pulling the wrong way?

Right ok then guys clearly I am a noob when it comes to modern (ish) bikes. Having just unboxed my 2004 FSR I already have lots of questions, but for now let's do them one at a time.

Why does the rear mech work in the opposite direction to those of the past? Having recently participated in a debate about Gripshift vs other shirting equipment this seems to me to be a much bigger change, how the hell am I going to get used to using my finger to pull back on the lever to go up a gear????

Help me out here

Author:  poweredbypies [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

Is it one of those rapid rise jobbies? either that or your cables is on upside down :lol:

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:22 pm ]
Post subject: 

poweredbypies wrote:
Is it one of those rapid rise jobbies? either that or your cables is on upside down :lol:


Rapid Rise jobbies, what's that? Cable on upside down, you're kidding right? You can put the cable on wrong and it switches round the shifting???

All I know right now is that it is a nice polished XTR rear mech, (M960 I think) if that helps. Can do a photo later.

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:58 pm ]
Post subject: 

Shimano did another silly gimmick in around 2001, with rapid rise. The mech's spring takes it to bottom gear and you pull the cable to take it to smaller sprockets. This causes all kinds of wonderful things to happen...according to the marketing department.

In reality, what it means is that downshifts require the force of the mech spring to push the chain onto the bigger sprocket, instead of your thumb force down the cable. That means very light shifting, but when the spring slackens with age it becomes erratic, especially under load. I never found my thumb was so weak that I couldn't shift down, so it was a solution to a non-existent problem. Typical Shimano marketing.

Most people hated it, which is why Shimano went back to the conventional 'high normal' system.

You will find the cable clamp is on the inner parallelogram arm instead of the outer.

It's a cruddy setup, so swap to a conventional mech and live happily ever after. 8)
The one thing in its favor is that you have identical up/ down buttons for shifting on the bars, and for bar-end levers on drop bars it keeps the lever out of the way of your knees when you are most likely to be out of the saddle.

Author:  poweredbypies [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

development_cycle wrote:
poweredbypies wrote:
Is it one of those rapid rise jobbies? either that or your cables is on upside down :lol:


Rapid Rise jobbies, what's that? Cable on upside down, you're kidding right? You can put the cable on wrong and it switches round the shifting???

All I know right now is that it is a nice polished XTR rear mech, (M960 I think) if that helps. Can do a photo later.


Yes was kidding about the cable :facepalm: :lol:

Author:  twain [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

cant understand the need for a rapid rise myself, and didn't think about the slackened cable issues.
i'm definitely staying clear of these. never found an unforgivable issue with conventional rear mechs :) i'm already 'happily ever after' with all of mine :)

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

Must admit I really liked my old rr xtr set up, just seemed to work better. Still get confused now I've got a normal set up again. :roll:

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:25 pm ]
Post subject: 

XTR RR rear mech for sale £20 posted to you sir!

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:28 pm ]
Post subject: 

:lol:

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:47 pm ]
Post subject: 

So let me get this straight, what you're saying is that it is meant to shift the wrong way round? Shit, I 'd better check that the brake levers are on the right way round and that I don't have to pedal backwards before I take it out for a ride... WTF??

Author:  twain [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

development_cycle wrote:
So let me get this straight, what you're saying is that it is meant to shift the wrong way round? Shit, I 'd better check that the brake levers are on the right way round and that I don't have to pedal backwards before I take it out for a ride... WTF??


quite clearly the only thing backwards here is you - keep up with the times old man!!! :P (this is clearly a joke - please don't misinterpret my sarcasm/dry wit)

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Simple really, the bottom lever shifts down instead of up. Think it was something to do with changing gear under stress. You tend to change to an easier gear when putting force through the gear system so this way lets the slack change for you. don't know if that makes sense but I know what I mean and I thought it worked well.

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

Thanks buddy, but on a serious note, this is all wrong, I didn't sign up for this.

The bike has M750 9 speed gear shifters, and an M960 rear mech, so are we saying that if I had shifters that were intended to run that rear mech it wouldn't feel quite so wrong? Or am I missing something?

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

I actualy quite like the rear mech, and as I am a retrohead and like my bikes to either be factory spec or at least period correct I'd lke to keep it, so what would the gear levers for these be like then? Do they only have one lever rather than two? If so that wouldn't feel quite so wrong as using the same old levers but with everything the other way around.

I have never really bothered with the gear display windows but these read the wrong gear pretty much all the time.

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

Don't think the shifters need to be rr but could be wrong.

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:01 pm ]
Post subject: 

I wonder if they do to at least display the correct gear if nothing else

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

The shifters are identical. It's just that the mech works backwards. That's marketing. So you just have to press the other lever button. Just.:roll:
Now, if you have never swung a leg over a bike before that's logical.

Shimano gave a nice lunch to lots of cycle journos and they then wrote about how brilliant it was. Then we bought it and discovered it was pointless.

Shimano had the last laugh as they sold us RR mechs, and then sold us replacements. :lol:

I hate Shimano for regularly solving problems that don't exist and making stuff needlessly obsolete. Stock up on 9 speed mechs now, 10 speed is completely incompatible.

The future lies in friction shifting. 8)

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:03 pm ]
Post subject: 

That's true although my XTR shifters didn't have the silly window things so it was not an issue. Can't remember if I had to get rr shifters when I bought them. :?

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

development_cycle wrote:
I wonder if they do to at least display the correct gear if nothing else


No, 9 will be 1 and 1 will be 9. Unless you have the special ones with the indicator labeled the other way.

Don't get me started on gear indicators. Another pointless addition of weight and complexity. If you don't have time to look down at the cassette, you don't have time to look at shifter pods.

Man I am GRUMPY today. Worked until 2am. :twisted:

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:12 pm ]
Post subject: 

Cheers guys, this brings in a whole new dimension for me. And I always thought that the RR mechs were the funny looking ones that looked like they had too many linkages? Shows what I know. I think I'll see how I get on with it first and then decide what to do.

Author:  twain [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:16 pm ]
Post subject: 

you'll probably end up loving it.

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:18 pm ]
Post subject: 

Yep, defo worth trying it. If I'd not got such a good deal on my 10sp set up I'd have stayed with rr.

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:29 pm ]
Post subject: 

twain wrote:
you'll probably end up loving it.


If you like gravy on sushi :lol:

Author:  T'boo Ted [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

I understand WHY they did it, having to explain to noobs that can't comprehend how the shifters work "on the left the big thumb button goes to a harder gear, the litte trigger goes to an easier onj...but on the right it opposite." At least this way its big thumb button harder, little trigger easier...

But really, people learn it in 5 minutes if they have a brain and 5 months if they don't

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

You get programmed to shift and brake without thinking about it. If you've ever ridden a bike with the brakes the other way round or driven a car with a dog-leg gearbox you'll understand what I mean.

As RR offered no benefit, why change it? If Shimano made cars they would alter the pedal positions and put the brake on the left or some such. :roll:

Author:  brocklanders023 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

I think it did have benifits tbh. Smoother to change up when under load. At least that's what I found.

Author:  development_cycle [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:30 pm ]
Post subject: 

Ok I get that, and so in theory less broken chains too then?

Author:  1210tech [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:24 pm ]
Post subject: 

At risk of becoming the elephant in the room I have just fitted an XT Rapid Rise to my RC300 build, more out of curiosity than anything else, and after about 10 minutes of shifting up when I wanted to shift down it finally sunk in and I've got to say I really like it.

It does feel a lot easier and smoother shifting up the cassette than a standard set up and I have been using standard set ups for 20+ years ;)





Ok, I'll sit here and wait for the flaming..... :lol:

Author:  twain [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

i'm starting to get curious.....

Author:  hamster [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:17 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well, there's my very tidy xtr mech going for £20 for the curious... :roll:

Author:  crossland [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

hamster wrote:
Well, there's my very tidy xtr mech going for £20 for the curious... :roll:


and for the even more curious, i have a set of these complete brake/ shifters and calipers.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/28820652@N07/4660659185/

which are designed for RR.
also have the front and rear mech too :D
oh and 3 spare spanking rotors.

Author:  jimo746 [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:57 pm ]
Post subject: 

aha!! I was wondering this myself, recently fitted a modern-ish LX rear mech to a bike, coupled with a modern-ish XT shifter, took it for a ride and my brain turned to mush when I went to change gear :lol:
I couldn't work out if it was the mech or the shifter that was playing silly buggers, I even contemplated turning the cables the other way around (joke!)

so this Rapid-Rise was just a short lived Shimano fad then? and all is back to normal now?

It's confused the hell out of me, especially when I get on my other bike with a "normal" rear mech :roll:

Author:  1210tech [ Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

jimo746 wrote:
so this Rapid-Rise was just a short lived Shimano fad then? and all is back to normal now?


Nope, its still in production or still available to buy anyway, my rear mech is a new XT M770 Rapid Rise

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 3:36 pm ]
Post subject: 

I just don't like 'em. So sue me.

Author:  development_cycle [ Tue Oct 30, 2012 4:38 pm ]
Post subject: 

I have to say that now that I have fitted the corresponding shifters rather than the normal ones it all seems pretty seemless. Bit like driving a left hand drive car really; in the UK it's a right pain in the arse, but in a country where they drive on the right it's not that different after a while 8)

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