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PostPosted: Sat Jul 23, 2011 3:32 pm 
Old School Hero
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DISK BRAKES, brilliant aren't they, both types are good, but I think HYDRAULIC DISK BRAKES cost a bit much to buy afterwards, especially in comparison to CABLE PULL DISK BRAKES, but if your bought MTB comes with hydraulic disk brakes GREAT, good for you, enjoy.

I like disk brakes, because they don't need toe-in (A practice were the front of the pad contacts the rim before the rear of the pad to prevent unwanted squealing), and disk brakes have far less fade from speed/heat, and especially without the annoying weather associated aquaplaning (Conventional rim brakes become less useful when wet due to reduced friction).

~ CABLE PULL DISK BRAKES (LOT CHEAPER then HYDRAULIC, slightly more friction then hydraulic brakes, bit less sophisticated then hydraulic also only one pad presses in together, when pulling lever, the other is fixed, but adjustable. You may think how does that work, isn't that a contradiction, NO IT ISN'T!)
Image Image
NOTE: DESIGNS and adjustment differ from model to model.

~ HYDRAULIC DISK BRAKES (MORE EXPENSIVE then CABLE PULL, but with less friction, also both pads press in together, guess most systems)
Image Image
NOTE: DESIGNS and adjustment differ from model to model.

Of course HYDRAULIC DISK BRAKES look better and more credible as well.

PROs (advantages) of DISK BRAKES:
~ If tyre/rim gets wet, disk brake performance unaffected.
~ If rim gets buckled disk brake performance unaffected (Hence no unexpected brake/tyre rub, hence less unexpected tyre explosions!)
~ Less brake fade from speed.
~ Less friction/flex then previous historic brakes (No brakes bosses used hence much less flex).
~ Pad life long.
~ Tyre width not limited by brakes (Such as centre pull, side pull or cantilever, as cable or brake housing may rub on larger width tyres).

CONs (disadvantages) of DISK BRAKES:
~ To fit MTB must have disk mounts on FRAME, FORK, BOTH HUBS, and if you have COMBO gear & brake levers then you would have to buy separate GEAR SHIFTERS as well, but only IF you're changing to HYDRAULIC as the lever style in different on HYDRAULIC DISK BRAKES, but the same on CABLE PULL DISK BRAKES (So if upgrading to CABLE DISK BRAKES, you can keep your existing BRAKE LEVERS even if combination style).
~ Pad replacement can be fiddly.
~ Setup/adjustment may not be obvious without consulting instructions first.
~ Setup/adjustment even with instructions may be fiddly, and may need some tools (Specialist or not), such as funnel for brake fluid top up (DOT5, etc), socket/spanner for bleed valve, rubber tube (Of correct diameter to be tight fit on bleed valve) and jar to siphon brake fluid during bleeding process to eradicate air bubbles until all are gone (No longer visible).
~ If brake lever or caliper breaks, may have to buy complete side (LEFT or RIGHT HAND SIDE lever/caliper again), to replace, as individual parts MAY not be available, or unable to separate as integrated.

REAR FRAME CALIPER MOUNTS: NON DRIVE SIDE (I.E: LEFT HAND SIDE OF FRAME)
Image

HUB 6 BOLT DISK MOUNTS NON DRIVE SIDE (I.E: LEFT HAND SIDE OF FORK). NOTE some newer versions are threaded instead, known as ROTOR or similar:
Image

CABLE ROUTING MOUNTS (In the photo below of the NON DRIVE SIDE OF THE FRAME, on the:
~ L/H side of the photo is zip tie mounts for HYDRAULIC & on the
~ R/H side of the photo are CABLE OUTER END STOPS for CABLE PULL DISK BRAKE OUTERS.
These are ESSENTIAL for CABLE PULL DISK BRAKES, less important on HYDRAULIC DISK BRAKES as could just zip tie the cable outers to the frame/fork):
Image

HYDRAULIC ROUTING: The hydraulic outer cable is simply laid on top of the hydraulic routing bridge, then to hold the hydraulic cable outer in place, push a zip tie through the bridged crevice, then fasten zip tie around the hydraulic routing bridge and the hydraulic cable outer, then cut off the excess end of the zip tie neatly!
Image

HYDRAULIC ROUTING & OUTER CABLE END STOP
Image

BOTH (CABLE or HYDRAULIC DISK BRAKE) ARE MUCH BETTER THEN HISTORIC BRAKES. THERE IS FAR LESS FLEX BECAUSE THE MOUNTS DON'T FLEX, BECAUSE previously the forces used were different, in cantilever brake versions the brakes are bolted to the FRAME BOSSES and FORK BOSSES (On MTB's, but ROAD BIKES, do NOT have FRAME/FORK BOSSES, are they have very narrow tyres and buckled rims are far less likely, so clearances can be very close).

BRAKE "BOSS" MOUNTS on FRAME and FORKS (NOTE: ALL QUALITY FRAMES & FORKS, also have DISK MOUNTS)
Image Image

HISTORY OF BRAKES

V BRAKES (STILL VERY GOOD IN SETUP & USE, but can flex at brake bosses in frame/forks)
Image

CANTILEVER (NOT AS POWERFUL AS V BRAKE, and REGULAR SETUP FIDDLY on some models, flex at brake bosses in frame/forks)
Image
Glad to have binned my old DIA-COMP's, my Cannondale M700, had them with power pulleys, oh my word, what a load of rubbish, those were replaced with DEORE V's, which were great).

BRAKE BRACE for FRONT or REAR boss mounted brakes to prevent/reduce flex of bosses moving in & out when pulling/releasing brake. Recent frames/forks (Year 2000+) are much more rigid then years ago.
Image

HYDRAULIC RIM BRAKES (People who had these were keen on them, but design limits the tyre width you can have. Also I remember some riders bust some rims as the brakes wore down the rim wall, until the rim snapped from the outer edge. Also flex at brake bosses in frame/forks, but quality hydraulic rim brakes have a BRACE to reduce flex, like these pictured below.)
Image

SIDE PULL (POOR PERFORMANCE on cheapest designs, quality designs still the standard on road bikes, as road bikes have very narrow tyres, hence tyres won't interfere with brake housing, and on the cheapest mountain bikes since brake is on larger scale there is more flex and friction. The balance tension adjustment is either crudely but effective just bolting in the centre, and/or allen key adjustment to balance by tension, but these become seized easily even on road bikes that doesn't get dirty often, and the small balance tension adjuster allen key bolt "rounds off", probably because the allen key bolts are very small, approx 2mm or 3mm. ALSO side pull brakes are mounted differently, ROAD BIKES do NOT have BRAKE BOSSES welded to FRAMES or FORKS, instead the brakes are mounted with an integrated long bolt in the centre of the side pull brakes, through the centre of the FRONT FORK, and the rear brakes is mounted in the rear of the BIKE FRAME, centre of horizontal bridge between the seat stays).
Image Image
Image Image

CENTRE PULL (POOR PERFORMANCE on cheapest designs. The balance tension adjustment is either crudely but effective just bolting in the centre, and/or allen key adjustment to balance by tension, but these become seized easily even on road bikes that doesn't get dirty often, and the small balance tension adjuster allen key bolt "rounds off", probably because the allen key bolts are very small, approx 2mm or 3mm.)
Image

REAR U BRAKE on EARLY GT's Good, but heavier, more friction and flex then V-Brakes. Mounted on rear frame brake bosses which also flex, but since u brake is quite robust, flex is minimal.
Image

ALSO ALL OF THESE CABLE PULL BRAKES aren't helped by really naff BRAKE LEVERS either, plastic flexes alot, alloy brakes levers are alot better:

PLASTIC BRAKE LEVERS
Image


Last edited by srands on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:36 pm, edited 8 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:03 pm 
Gold Trader
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the cable stops are not essential for cable disc brakes, the caliper is in itself a cable stop


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 1:35 pm 
Old School Hero
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Dead Rats wrote:
the cable stops are not essential for cable disc brakes, the caliper is in itself a cable stop


The reason I phrased it like that, is to point out what riders need to consider before buying, because some persons might rush out and buy themselves some disk brakes, not realising their frame/fork/hubs need the specific mounts. Instead of them being badly disappointed, that it doesn't fit, wondering if they can bodge it on with some sort of adaptors, and/or also wondering what to do with the loosely flapping around cable/hydraulic disk outers, then frantically looking at other MTB's that come with disks as standard to see what is normally done (The etiquette of mounting! Like looking at other peoples haircuts wondering what to do with yours, and what hair styling product(s) to use, great analogy, eh), then feeling really stupid after realising a few zip ties to hold them in place.

But you would have to agree that most frames that have the CALIPER MOUNT, are going to have the REAR CABLE PULL OUTER ENDS STOPS and/or THE REAR HYDRAULIC ROUTING for outers to be zip tied to. Quality frames have had these since the year 2000+ (My 2003 £360 Claud Butler Cape Wrath does, so I'd hope most quality others do by now, as pictured)
Image

FRONT MECHANICAL or HYDRAULIC DISKS, the small length outer from the brake lever to the FRONT SUSPENSION CALIPER MOUNT I agree can be secured with a few zip ties (As pictured), to prevent to outer from flapping around loosely.
Image

REAR MECHANICAL DISK, the outer is quite a length, if your frame doesn't have cable outer stops on the rear seat/chain stays, then it isn't essential it just means there will be slightly more flex/friction. (NOTE: Since the mechanical disk cable inner/outer is the same diameter/type as normal v brakes/cantilever then the conventional top/btm tube routing can be used, as far as it goes, normally were the top tube and seat tube join).

REAR HYDRAULIC DISK, if your frame does NOT have HYDRAULIC ROUTING, it means zip tying the outers, which since most MTB's these days have TOP TUBE ROUTING, the precautiously positioned and zip tied hydraulic outer may cause an obstacle to smooth shifting of the cable pull front/rear mech. (NOTE: Since the hydraulic disk outer is LARGER diameter, this outer won't fit/pass through conventional cable pull cable outer end stops, on your frame, but newer quality frames, have the additional HYDRAULIC ROUTING, normally under the top tube to prevent hydraulic outer & zip ties being an obstacle (Messing up GEARING) to front/rear mech cables. Hydraulic routing under my top tube, as pictured).
Image
Image
Image
Image


Last edited by srands on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:56 pm 
Retro Guru
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Its disc not disk


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:11 pm 
Old School Hero
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andrewl wrote:
Its disc not disk


In the UK it is spelt DISK.

Perhaps in AUSSI or wherever it is spelt/pronounced disc.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 3:44 pm 
retrobike rider
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srands wrote:
andrewl wrote:
Its disc not disk


In the UK it is spelt DISK.

Perhaps in AUSSI or wherever it is spelt/pronounced disc.


:shock: In the UK it's 'disc', disk is American*.


(either is correct though as both, like most dual spellings, originated from English but spilt by popular demand many centuries ago.



*though I believe they call it a 'rotor'


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:39 pm 
Old School Hero
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Well Ben, I'll mention that to Ms Myers OR Jones next time I see either of them!

But in all honesty, I don't think they keen cyclists.

And anyway most MTB riders shouldn't be so concerned with their (Or other peoples) GRAMMAR, PUNCTUATION or SPELLING, surely most of us can't comprehend what our fellow MTB's riders/peers/friends(?) are even saying, let alone be positive that their pronunciation is correct.


Last edited by srands on Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:47 pm 
Old School Hero
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NOW WHAT WE HAVE HERE IS A BIG QUESTION/STATEMENT.

DID SHIMANO convince MTB (FRAME) MAKERS & SUSPENSION FORK MAKERS, to make FRAMES/FORKS with CALIPER MOUNTS & ROUTING END STOPS/BRIDGES? HOW BOLD OF THEM.

SINCE SHIMANO MOSTLY HAVE THE MONOPOLY ON GROUPSETS, ONCE THEY INITIALLY DESIGNED & MADE THE DISK READY HUBS, DID THEY SUPPLY THE SPECIFICATIONS TO THE MAKERS (BOSSES) OF FRAME & FORK MANUFACTURERS, CONVINCING THEM IT WAS GOING TO BE THE NEXT BIG THING, AND THEY SHOULD INCORPORATE THE MOUNTS/ROUTING?

NOW I HAVE TO WONDER IF THIS WAS PLANNED A LONG TIME AGO, SINCE THE NAME OF THE STUDS SCREWED TO THE FRAME/FORK, ARE KNOWN AS "BOSSES", AND SHIMANO DON'T MAKE FRAMES AND/OR FORKS, THAT I KNOW OF, SO THEY WOULD HAVE TO SPEAK TO THE BOSSES OF FRAME/FORK MANUFACTURERS TO GET THEM INTERESTED IN THIS?

PROs: Another selling point to customers
CONs: Cost to include in manufacturing.

ANYBODY, GOT A GREAT EXPLAINATION, OF HOW FRAME/FORK MANUFACTURERS DECIDED TO INCLUDE DISK MOUNTS/ROUTING?


Last edited by srands on Mon Jul 25, 2011 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:38 pm 
retrobike rider
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Market penetration and the need for them to be there.
Disc where around before Shimano got on the mass production scene and many adaptor types where around
Hope being one who brought them to market in the early 90's
Formula, RockShox, and other also had them and their own specifications out in and others will know and correct me, the late 90's

the bosses/cable stops/tabs are just an evolution or even reuse of what was already there. Full length cabling was in use before me or you where biking :)

Shimano has specs for all sort of things, the dropout for one thing so the rear mech can sit properly for shifting, but it's not necessarily them who thought of the shape and dimensions. They tend to reinvent the ran out patents
8)

I don't know who dreamt up the IS/PM disc tab standards, though shimano do have their own disc hub attachment (centrelock) though again just a copy to their spec of other peoples before hand.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 24, 2011 11:01 pm 
Old School Hero
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How (And more interestingly WHO) did it all get started in the first place....

Yes well I guess the MTB industry do knock heads together:
~ SHIMANO
~ DISK BRAKES MANUFACTURERS (Hope, Tektro Shimano, Magura, Avid, Clarke, etc) and
~ SUSPENSION FORK MANUFACTURERS (Roch Shox, SR Suntour, Marzocchi & Fox)
~ MTB frame MAKERS (All those you can think of)

All of the above must collaborate together on matters of general interest, obviously the STANDARD CALIPER MOUNT and it's positioning is NOT a coincidence!


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