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eBay RaceFace cranks, misleading description?
http://www.retrobike.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=153091

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  eBay RaceFace cranks, misleading description?

Bought a set of RaceFace cranks off eBay recently, they arrived today.
I could immediately see on unpacking that drive side taper was knackered, looks like it has been run with loose bolt. It bottoms out on axle so bolt wouldn't tighten it.

This is the description on auction,

"Hello and welcome to my listing. Dug these out while clearing out the garage, thought I'd chuck them on here! I pulled these from my Kona full sus a few years back when I upgraded to 3-piece. As far as i can recall they were fine, but its been a while, so I'm listing them as for parts. There is a bolt missing from the main ring. I believe its possible for these to be a triple ring set up. The pedal threads are ok as I only took the pedals off today, and the tapers are fine. Its a rarity to find decent square taper cranks these days! Any questions, please ask, collection/cash on collection fine, will NOT ship overseas without prior arrangement. These are listed as parts only as have no way to test a square taper crank, so no returns!"

So before I contact seller I thought I'd ask here if I should have expected the tapers to be OK since he specifically states they're "fine", although he covers himself by saying he had no way to test them. If he had not said tapers were "fine", I would not have bid for them.

So what are your thoughts RetroBikers, am I justified in thinking I was misled by description of them being fine?

Author:  The Ken [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:24 pm ]
Post subject: 

Very difficult one to judge OCP - with all the disclaimers (and hindsight) I wouldn't have bid.

Personally (and being a skeptic) I think he knew they were knackered and came up with a way to punt them for more money than he would have got if he'd said they were broken. It has been too carefully worded in my opinion.

I would try paypal but I wouldn't hold my breath.

Author:  suburbanreuben [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

But he does say the pedal threads and tapers are "Fine". You can therefore assume they should be "fine" but that he is uncertain about other aspects of their condition.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

TK, the "disclaimers" did give me pause but the fact he stated the tapers were "fine" so I bid. I agree he knew the taper was effed.

suburbanreuben, that's what I thought as well, why state the tapers are "fine" if they weren't? That's misleading in my opinion.

Methinks a dispute will be started, will contact him first, see what he says.

Author:  mikee [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:13 pm ]
Post subject: 

go for it john
seems a bit off to me

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 8:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well got a reply, says they are OK.:o Says I must have worn BB or I have overtightened them. I've not even bothered putting a bolt in BB as yet, no point if it will screw all the way into BB axle without tightening crank onto BB.

When I put the drive side crank onto BB the end of BB axle is flush with flat in crank arm where bolt head bears against arm. The non-drive side crank is around 4/5mm proud of end of BB axle. All the other crank arms I have tried, have the same 4/5mm between end of BB axle and bolt recess. The fact that the 2 Race Face arms go onto BB axle different amount shows that the drive side crank taper is spread allowing it to bottom out on BB taper. All the other crank arms I have drive and non-drive fit on to BB tapers the same amount with the 4/5mm clearance.

Author:  suburbanreuben [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:05 pm ]
Post subject: 

Try another BB or two, and take pics to show him, and Ebay, that it is the same for all BBs.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

That's a good idea. Have replied to him again, so will wait on his response before taking crank arms off my other bikes to do that.

Measured the square of taper on inside of arm, the drive side is 13.9mm and non-drive is 13.5mm. The square of drive side taper is bigger than non-drive square, possibly because it is spread and why it pushes onto the axle further than the non-drive and other arms I have.

Author:  d00m [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:19 pm ]
Post subject: 

Did you pay with paypal? Just start a paypal dispute in the resolution center if he tries it on.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 10:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

Hopefully it won't come to that, if the seller sees sense.

Author:  Dangermouse [ Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:26 pm ]
Post subject: 

In 99% of cases the buyer gets their money back in full if a "Not as described" case is opened :wink:

Author:  The Ken [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 8:43 am ]
Post subject: 

If he comes back with a negative reply start a dispute immediately.

Does the crank end look damaged, it should if it doesn't fit that well?

Also just playing devils advocate - and this is unlikely - are you sure the crank is for your bottom bracket? There are 2 standards JIS (shimano etc) and ISO - (campagnolo and a few euro brands)

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 1:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

TK, he hasn't got back to me since I e-mailed him, through eBay, the 2nd time. I will start a dispute if I need to, eBay seems to like you to try to resolve it yourself.
When I unwrapped the drive side crank I looked inside the taper, instead of uniform flat contact patches where crank tapers fit, the contact patches have 4 grooves where corner of crank tapers have dug in. This has probably been caused by the bolt being loose and cranks being pedalled. Obviously this affects how tightly the crank fits on BB taper, not tightly in this case.

I also thought about JIS and ISO, so checked last night. It's got nothing to do with it.
The fact that there is a difference in fit of the 2 RaceFace cranks compared to each other when they should be the same shows the drive side crank taper is damaged/spread.
Later today or tomorrow I'll pop into the LBS and ask to try the cranks on several new and used BB's just to remove any doubt that there is something wrong with crank.

Author:  Reluctant [ Fri Jun 10, 2011 4:59 pm ]
Post subject: 

I saw these on the Bay a week or two ago. The description was pretty ambiguous, so I decided not to bid. It's a tricky one....on the one hand he says "tapers are fine" - then "i have no way to test the tapers" and lists as "not working, for parts only".
Still worth opening a dispute, I'd be well hacked off if I'd bought them - I think you have a good chance of a refund. Good luck!

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Sat Jun 11, 2011 11:44 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well he replied still insisting that there was nothing wrong with crank taper and that I must have damaged it while fitting. All I did was, by hand, fit the crank onto a BB that wasn't fitted to a bike, no tightening up with bolt, just slid on.
Took some pics,

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

As you can see the RaceFace drive arm is flush with BB axle end so a bolt won't tighten it up. The non-drive RaceFace arm is OK as can be seen with some other old cranks for comparison.
In the last pic I was trying to show how the BB axle has dug in to taper at bottom left just where shadow shows the angle of it. All 4 inside faces of crank taper are like that.

Author:  jax13 [ Sun Jun 12, 2011 12:39 am ]
Post subject: 

start a dispute. he can't say he tapers are fine then put a caveat on them saying he has no way to test them. you'll lose out on return postage (make sure it is tracked) but its worth it for a refund on a dodgy item.
don't wait any longer, get onto paypal and get the dispute asap and include copies of his listing text and emails between you.

paypal will tell you to send them back and give you a refund when he has received them, in the meantime - email the seller again informing him your opening the dispute as he claimed they were fine when they weren't as there is no way you could do that sort of damage by dry-fitting onto an unmounted BB.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Sun Jun 12, 2011 1:17 am ]
Post subject: 

jax13,

I've just finished doing that.
PayPal/eBay will now contact him and he/we have 10 days to resolve it. Once you start a dispute PayPal get access to your email correspondence with seller. The seller obviously thought he was being clever the way he worded the description because when I informed him I was going to open dispute part of his reply was "we will let ebay decide what should happen about a 'for parts' listing, i'm quite curious myself to see how they will deal with this."

Author:  Reluctant [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 12:10 pm ]
Post subject: 

Any progress on this? I'd like to know how you got on :)

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 1:00 pm ]
Post subject: 

I started a dispute about them not being as described. Seller denies there was anything wrong with cranks, says I must have damaged them when fitting them. All I've done is fit a BB by hand into crank. According to him they were listed as For parts or not working so I knew before I bid that they weren't OK. He can't have it both ways by describing the important parts of cranks, tapers and pedal threads, as fine and OK and the cranks as decent square taper cranks.
He has told me he has no intention of giving a refund and from his replies it's obvious he thinks he has worded the auction in such a way that he can say I knew that cranks were defective before I bid. He shouldn't have described that tapers were fine if that was his plan. Maybe that's why he mentioned the missing chain-ring bolt.
I checked the crank on a new BB in LBS shop to confirm there's nothing wrong with the BB that I used to test crank.

Anyway PayPal/eBay want you to try and settle it between ourselves before they get involved after 10 days. He hasn't replied to me since Wednesday, the Resolution Centre sends you emails saying you have to respond to the last reply you get.

Author:  suburbanreuben [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 6:23 pm ]
Post subject: 

It sounds very much like he was trying to have it both ways - imply they were really OK, yet cover himself when the buyer realised they were toast - and forgot to edit out the bit about the threads being "fine". :roll:

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 7:35 pm ]
Post subject: 

You could try taking a little material off the axle?

I bought a RaceFace crankset of the splined variety that turned out to be duff, but I had left it too long before using it to do anything about it.

I think I can machine a solution, but haven't bothered as yet.

The pity is that he has stated the goods were not working, so you are going to have to rely on their good will.

How about a discount? Worth a try, no?

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

highlandsflyer,

The seller has said no refund, basically dared me to start a dispute because he thinks that the way he has worded the auction covers him.

He may have stated that the cranks were for parts or not working but he specifically stated that the important parts of cranks, the pedal threads and crank tapers, were "OK" and "fine". He cannot then say that because I have discovered one of the tapers is knackered that they were listed as parts or not working.

The taper isn't just spread a bit but the crank has been ridden with the bolt loose as there is a groove on each of the 4 faces of tapers where the corners of BB axle tapers have dug in. So machining a bit off back of crank might be a short-term solution but the taper faces in crank are not flat and in my opinion would just loosen off again.

Author:  highlandsflyer [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:20 pm ]
Post subject: 

OK. I understand, then it seems replacement is the only option, although being me I would try drilling and adding a wedge pin or something, but I am certified nuts.

It seems he pulled a fast one then. I wonder what the chances are of picking just the drive side up on Ebay or elsewhere.

Another example of the evil side of Ebay.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Fri Jun 17, 2011 8:46 pm ]
Post subject: 

Indeed I think he has pulled a fast one.
I may have given him the benefit of doubt except that his response to me telling him crank was damaged, was that he pointed out his disclaimers in description and also to accuse me of damaging crank.
No apology at all that he hadn't noticed damage which would be a normal response from a seller but immediately giving me the answer that I should have expected them to be not right.

Author:  02gf74 [ Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:49 pm ]
Post subject: 

sneaky ebayer trying to make out parts are good when they are not.

how much did you pay for them n the end?

even if you get you money back, you will have to pay for return postage; and to avoid seller denying he/she received the crnaks, you best use recorded delivery ... whcih all puts up the cost.

keep us informed as to how it goes, then name and shame!!!

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 5:55 pm ]
Post subject: 

Just spoken to PayPal/eBay and escalated the case. The person I spoke to escalated it for me and told me they'd email me a pre-paid label to send the cranks back. This will have tracking number so seller cannot weasel out of it by saying he didn't receive them. I'll be refunded my money by PayPal when it's confirmed the parcel has reached him, whether into his hands or by a card to show that Parcelforce attempted to deliver them to him.
The seller and I had 10 days to resolve the problem but seller hasn't replied to me since I responded to him for 2nd time on the 20th.
He still maintains I must have damaged them while fitting them and, anyway, according to him, I bought them knowing they were for parts or not working. No admittance saying he shouldn't then have described the tapers as fine. Sent him photo of damage on 20th so he might have realised game was up.
So will post ASAP and let you guys know outcome. Still have nagging doubt that he'll weasel out of it somehow. He's getting negative feedback too, as soon as the money is out of my PayPal account and into bank. He has 100% +ve too. Silly boy.

Just realised I'll know his name and address too, so may name and shame him. Well at least his eBay ID. He deserves it.

Author:  suburbanreuben [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:37 pm ]
Post subject: 

String him up!
:wink:

Author:  IDB1 [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 6:56 pm ]
Post subject: 

old_coyote_pedaller wrote:
He's getting negative feedback too, as soon as the money is out of my PayPal account and into bank. He has 100% +ve too. Silly boy.


I recently had a dispute case settled by refund and didn't have the option to leave feedback once it was resolved.. which blew tbh, 'my' seller also deserved a good old fashioned neg'ing...

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:06 pm ]
Post subject: 

suburbanreuben wrote:
String him up!
:wink:


That reminded me of a scene from Life of Brian,

Nail 'em up I say! Nail some sense into 'em!




IDB1, maybe I could give him negative now before it's finally resolved, but don't want to eff up getting my money back.

Author:  suburbanreuben [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:08 pm ]
Post subject: 

Do you want justice?

























Or Revenge? :twisted:

Author:  IDB1 [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:09 pm ]
Post subject: 

old_coyote_pedaller wrote:
IDB1, maybe I could give him negative now before it's finally resolved, but don't want to eff up getting my money back.


Too right...

Hope you get the option tbh mate.. sellers shouldn't be allowed to be asshats and get away with it.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Sun Jun 26, 2011 7:15 pm ]
Post subject: 

suburbanreuben wrote:
Do you want justice?

























Or Revenge? :twisted:


I'd like to give him a course of baseball bat therapy :evil: :evil: but the money comes first.

IDB1, you're right, if I can't give him neg, it's no warning to others who might think he's an OK seller.

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

Got a phonecall yesterday from PayPal to say that the seller had received the cranks and I'd get my refund within 2-3 days. Paid into PayPal account this afternoon, once it's out of there into my bank I'll name and shame the seller. They emailed me a prepaid postage label to send cranks back and also got full refund, too. 8)
When I asked the person I spoke to if I could still give the seller negative, he said there was no reason why I couldn't. I also received a message in eBay that was addressed to seller, probably copied to me, informing him that they would be removing the money from his PayPal account but it also said he could appeal the decision going in my favour. :roll: A bit late for that since they've refunded me already.
I was assured by caller that the seller couldn't stop my refund in any way. :?


Do you think sending him a GIRFUY message would be going too far? :twisted:

Author:  old_coyote_pedaller [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:45 pm ]
Post subject: 

Well that's me got the full refund into my bank account now. The seller ididyourmum will now be minus that refund. He also no longer has 100% positive feedback, my negative saw to that.:D Haven't sent him a GIRFUY message yet, still musing if I should or not.

Author:  IDB1 [ Thu Jul 07, 2011 2:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

old_coyote_pedaller wrote:
Well that's me got the full refund into my bank account now. The seller ididyourmum will now be minus that refund. He also no longer has 100% positive feedback, my negative saw to that.:D Haven't sent him a GIRFUY message yet, still musing if I should or not.


8)

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