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BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote Now
Poll ended at Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:02 pm
We_are_Stevo's 1992 Saracen Kili Wot 7%  7%  [ 12 ]
nevadasmith's 1989 Orange Formula 14%  14%  [ 24 ]
The History Man's 1997 Muddy Fox Rock N Roll TEAM 12%  12%  [ 20 ]
Mr Panda's 1995 Orange P7 4%  4%  [ 6 ]
Legrandefromage's - 1992 Saracen Kili Racer 5%  5%  [ 8 ]
Andyz's 1990 Muddy Fox Courier Comp 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Gravy Monster's 1989 Saracen Trekker Competition UU 12%  12%  [ 20 ]
Secret_Squirrels 93 Vit T 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
lord GT's 1992 Sarcen Kili Pro 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Boscarn's 1996 Saracen Kili Pro 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
mrkawasaki's Orange Vitamin T2 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Brocklanders 1989 Saracen Tufftrax 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Stocko's 1993 Orange Clockwork 8%  8%  [ 13 ]
1997BlackC5's 1996 Saracen Rufftrax 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
drcarlos' 1989 Muddy Fox Courier Comp 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
stanny's 1985 Saracen Conquest 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
MADB's 1984 S&G Araya Muddy Fox 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
chrisv40's 1993 Saracen Traverse 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Matthews' Muddy Fox Alu Pro 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
xxnick1975's Saracen City Bike 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
91lavadome's 1996 ORANGE p7 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
minorlegend's Orange Clockwork 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
iscervo's 1992 Muddy Fox Alu Xtr Twinshock 2%  2%  [ 4 ]
Rodrigues' 1989 Saracen Kili Flyer Comp 13%  13%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 169
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:36 pm 
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jaypee wrote:
for about 20 years I thought Orange were American (after Orange County) and I still thought they were the coolest so, to the US contingent, I think they can hold their own against your Fats and Goats etc.



Hmmmm...

Make mine a Goat please.

No doubt there are some fun bikes posted but I wouldn't know which one was the hand built frame and which ones came off the assembly lines in asia. Which models were the top of the line? Who was the frame builder for the high end Muddy Fox, Orange, and Sacaren frames BITD? Are they still making quality bikes?

I always enjoy reading about different builders and how they started out along with what they are doing now.

Educate this ignorant Yank about these early British Mtb masters.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:46 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Ductape wrote:
jaypee wrote:
for about 20 years I thought Orange were American (after Orange County) and I still thought they were the coolest so, to the US contingent, I think they can hold their own against your Fats and Goats etc.



Hmmmm...

Make mine a Goat please.

No doubt there are some fun bikes posted but I wouldn't know which one was the hand built frame and which ones came off the assembly lines in asia. Which models were the top of the line? Who was the frame builder for the high end Muddy Fox, Orange, and Sacaren frames BITD? Are they still making quality bikes?

I always enjoy reading about different builders and how they started out along with what they are doing now.

Educate me.


Muddy's were mostly off the lines in Asia with the odd one (the top prestige models in 1988, 1989 and 1990) being hand fillet brazed by Japanese craftsmen. Orange were mostly the same but the Formula's were custom level bikes handbuilt by some top UK builders. The Saracens were different and were mostly handbuilt in the UK in Warwickshire and the Conquests and Kilis that you see here certainly fit that description and I also think the Trekker was too.
Muddyfox and Orange share the same bloodline with Orange using the same far east builders and even basing their early bikes on the Muddy's (My Courier Comp and a Clockwork look remarkable similar in design and spec) and were a lot of peoples first serious MTB or in the case of Orange serious race bike.
Saracen are producing some quality bikes again after years of BSO things, Muddyfox went bust in the 90's and the name was bought by Universal who just turn out cataloge spec toilet. Orange remain to this day a maker of some decent MTB's that are still selling well here in the UK.

Carl.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:09 pm 
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It is interestig that with all the Mountain bikes built in Asia, there has never been a big following for any specific asian Mtb builder (person not company).
Different culture.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 6:21 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Ductape wrote:
It is interestig that with all the Mountain bikes built in Asia, there has never been a big following for any specific asian Mtb builder (person not company).
Different culture.


Muddyfox and Orange were both designed and distributed in the the UK, much like Specialized and Marin are designed in the US and built in the far east, I think they both have a decent following.

Carl.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:23 pm 
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I know I said `at first glance` the black Fat could be mistaken for the other two mentioned but put all three of them in a line up and your average rider who isn't bothered by such things would be hard pressed to tell them apart...

...does it really matter if a frame was hand rolled on the thigh of some dusky maiden in the Equatorial Americas or some little guy in a sweat stained t-shirt and forage cap in the middle of an Asian rain forest?

If it looks like a... etc?

There are Fats similar in design to my entry, but I wouldn't swap for one; mine may not be `exotic` or have a `faddy` set of decals but Reynolds 531 was once the choice of kings, and riding mine I can tell why. It is a joy to ride, being so responsive it feels alive, and I can honestly say it is probably my favourite bike ever 8)


Last edited by We_are_Stevo on Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:56 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Location: Hunting down the "foxes" of lincolnshire
I like to think (fondly remember) Muddys' as bikes that were a synthesis of cool and actually obtainable.

BITD you tended to fall into the Marin, Spesh or Muddy camp in my part of the world, pre-internet besides the magazines it was down to what you could get and in something like the right size!

They had the coolest marketing campaign (and name) in the same way that Nevica (ski wear) and Lacoste polo's did.

but they acted the proverb and did what it said on the tin. It was a wise move to buy / negotiate a deal with Araya (a proper bike company) to re-sell in the uk / europe and that ensured the early bikes were 'sound'.

I tend to view this 'debate' in terms of the law of dimiinishing returns, the historical manifestation of Brailsford's' "marginal gains".

You could buy a £400 Saracen (which TBH was a big fat chunk of money in '88) or something "handmade" for 4 times as much and be at least 1% faster.

If one were to look at the craftmanship debate in an historical context ala William Morris and the Arts and Crafts Movement one would see distinct parallels. Few then could afford to live the dream.

Where this debate, though, becomes contrived is in the use of mass produced componentry and frame sets.

Morris would have poured scorn on the use of such 'kit'. Indeed to miss quote SteveO above how much difference is there between an Orange Prestige XTR and a Fat fitted with the same groupset.

There is more commonality than singularity.

IMHO opinion the entire debate is disingenuous unless the framebuilder is a metallurgist, foundry, roll mill and welder/ brazer too.

Or it's horses for courses and it's, after all, just about the bike....


Last edited by Archemist on Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:13 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:31 pm 
P.o.T.M. Winner / MacRetro Rider
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girlonbike wrote:
I like Mr. Panda's dog.



Woof!

Image

EIN :!:


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:36 pm 
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Gorgeous dog...8)


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:39 pm 
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drcarlos wrote:
Ductape wrote:
It is interestig that with all the Mountain bikes built in Asia, there has never been a big following for any specific asian Mtb builder (person not company).
Different culture.


Muddyfox and Orange were both designed and distributed in the the UK, much like Specialized and Marin are designed in the US and built in the far east, I think they both have a decent following.

Carl.


The brand yes but I was implying specifically a persons name.
Look at all the bikes represented on Retrobike and the vast majority were made in Asia. Now name one Asian MTB frame builers name from BITD.
We can rattle off the names of U.S. and U.K. frame builders with very little effort.
A few of those dudes must have had the desire to get of the factory line and start their own custom Mtb frame making shop.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:42 pm 
P.o.T.M. Winner / MacRetro Rider
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brocklanders023 wrote:
:lol: BotMer, I might pinch that and use it instead of bumder. :lol: :lol:


I just pity the poor souls who become BOTY Winners .... .... .... The Botties :xmas-big-grin:


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