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BoTM July '13 - Muddy Fox vs Orange vs Saracen - Vote Now
Poll ended at Wed Jul 31, 2013 8:02 pm
We_are_Stevo's 1992 Saracen Kili Wot 7%  7%  [ 12 ]
nevadasmith's 1989 Orange Formula 14%  14%  [ 24 ]
The History Man's 1997 Muddy Fox Rock N Roll TEAM 12%  12%  [ 20 ]
Mr Panda's 1995 Orange P7 4%  4%  [ 6 ]
Legrandefromage's - 1992 Saracen Kili Racer 5%  5%  [ 8 ]
Andyz's 1990 Muddy Fox Courier Comp 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Gravy Monster's 1989 Saracen Trekker Competition UU 12%  12%  [ 20 ]
Secret_Squirrels 93 Vit T 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
lord GT's 1992 Sarcen Kili Pro 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Boscarn's 1996 Saracen Kili Pro 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
mrkawasaki's Orange Vitamin T2 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
Brocklanders 1989 Saracen Tufftrax 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
Stocko's 1993 Orange Clockwork 8%  8%  [ 13 ]
1997BlackC5's 1996 Saracen Rufftrax 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
drcarlos' 1989 Muddy Fox Courier Comp 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
stanny's 1985 Saracen Conquest 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
MADB's 1984 S&G Araya Muddy Fox 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
chrisv40's 1993 Saracen Traverse 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Matthews' Muddy Fox Alu Pro 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
xxnick1975's Saracen City Bike 2%  2%  [ 3 ]
91lavadome's 1996 ORANGE p7 1%  1%  [ 2 ]
minorlegend's Orange Clockwork 1%  1%  [ 1 ]
iscervo's 1992 Muddy Fox Alu Xtr Twinshock 2%  2%  [ 4 ]
Rodrigues' 1989 Saracen Kili Flyer Comp 13%  13%  [ 22 ]
Total votes : 169
Author Message
PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:15 am 
B.o.T.M. Winner / Feature Bike
B.o.T.M. Winner / Feature Bike
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:26 pm
Posts: 6191
Location: Tilting at windmills and shouting at the rain.
ededwards wrote:
I thought that there would be something for everyone to like this month as some sweet fillet brazing on show along with generous lashings of nostalgia and even some mid 80s bikes too. Obviously the wrong sort of fillet brazing though and the older bikes are too MOR with the wrong branding.


British only bikes that only british people can really have nostalgia for? Certainly not something for everyone. I don't think the theme was a bad one, just don't pretend it something it's not and don't be surprised when people who have no knowledge of 3 brands of predominantly Asian mass produced bikes can't find a latch to hook on to.
As far as middle of the road, well that's what the bikes were designed to be, in there with specialized, Trek and Marin. There will always be a group who like high end, who like the back story, who like to know the name of the guy who fillet brazed the bike rather than the name of the factory or part of Taiwan where it was done, who like their bikes to be more than an exercise in branding generic frames
These guys get vilified for being 'elitist' on this site so you can't be that surprised when they don't get excited by these three british brands.

Maybe it was you who is the Troll for purposefully selecting this theme in order to get a rise out of the Imericans, in which case it worked.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 10:39 am 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 4:00 pm
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Location: Hunting down the "foxes" of lincolnshire
Mr Panda wrote:
brocklanders023 wrote:
:lol: BotMer, I might pinch that and use it instead of bumder. :lol: :lol:


I just pity the poor souls who become BOTY Winners .... .... .... The Botties :xmas-big-grin:


Worse still to come last - then you're BOTtoM :)

+1 for your canine friend 8)


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 11:12 am 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
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Joined: Thu Jul 09, 2009 2:12 pm
Posts: 3046
Location: Yateley, Hants.
pete_mcc wrote:
nevadasmith wrote:
I thought that once the initial link up with F W Evans was dropped all Saracens were fabricated in the Far East and then assembled (hand built) in the uk - clever marketing long Orange and MF!


Yup, they were all made in the Far East and, to quote the Saracen catalogue, hand assembled in Saracen's Warwickshire workshop. No British craftsmen were harmed in the making of a Saracen.


If you look at the specs certainly in the 87 and 89-90 catalogues the top end 'frames' are all quoted as being handmade, with the low end stuff not quoted, so probably off the peg far east frames. They did change over totally at some point probably the early 90's (as that's when the handmade moniker disappears from the frame in the catalogue) like other manufacturers. Certainly Sinnerman believed my '87 Kili Flyer to be a handmade UK frame and he used to sell them BITD, so i'd be inclined to believe him, not really a Saracen nut so I have to defer to his knowledge there.

Carl.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 12:51 pm 
B.o.T.M. Winner / Feature Bike
B.o.T.M. Winner / Feature Bike
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:26 pm
Posts: 6191
Location: Tilting at windmills and shouting at the rain.
They were all hand made, just not in the UK - the fillet brazed were probably Toyo made frames.

What they did was hand finish them in the UK by adding braze ons such as mudguard mounts and brake bosses and then powder coating them. You'll note in the early catalogues that they talk about hand finishing, hand assembling and hand building but not to them being hand made in the UK.

Edit: should say that that refers to 1989 onwards, your 1987 was probably a Bluemels made bike and is clearly marked as handmade in the uk in the catalogue


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 1:02 pm 
Pumpy's Bear
Pumpy's Bear
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:03 pm
Posts: 8145
Location: Hereford
pete_mcc wrote:
ededwards wrote:
I thought that there would be something for everyone to like this month as some sweet fillet brazing on show along with generous lashings of nostalgia and even some mid 80s bikes too. Obviously the wrong sort of fillet brazing though and the older bikes are too MOR with the wrong branding.


British only bikes that only british people can really have nostalgia for? Certainly not something for everyone. I don't think the theme was a bad one, just don't pretend it something it's not and don't be surprised when people who have no knowledge of 3 brands of predominantly Asian mass produced bikes can't find a latch to hook on to.
As far as middle of the road, well that's what the bikes were designed to be, in there with specialized, Trek and Marin. There will always be a group who like high end, who like the back story, who like to know the name of the guy who fillet brazed the bike rather than the name of the factory or part of Taiwan where it was done, who like their bikes to be more than an exercise in branding generic frames
These guys get vilified for being 'elitist' on this site so you can't be that surprised when they don't get excited by these three british brands.


I'n not surprised when anyone doesn't like something just find it a bit pointless to post up along the lines of "I don't like the bikes this month so am not going to vote" - thankfully the other 28,000 registered voters who also aren't going to vote don't post up on similar lines.


pete_mcc wrote:
Maybe it was you who is the Troll for purposefully selecting this theme in order to get a rise out of the Imericans, in which case it worked.


I'm not sure why you think I chose the theme for this month but you are mistaken.

I did enjoy the subtle nuances though, good to see that you can still get individually tailored high quality trolling among the bland mass produced stuff that's so prevalent these days (please note the self restraint that it has taken not to put a winking smiley there. Which with what I have just typed means that I've had to resist the winking smiley twice).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 2:52 pm 
BoTM Winner / Gold Trader
BoTM Winner / Gold Trader
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Joined: Fri Feb 26, 2010 12:36 am
Posts: 4715
Location: Burlington, ON Canada
ededwards wrote:
I'n not surprised when anyone doesn't like something just find it a bit pointless to post up along the lines of "I don't like the bikes this month so am not going to vote" - thankfully the other 28,000 registered voters who also aren't going to vote don't post up on similar lines.


I find a simple shoulder shrug followed by clicking the back button works wonders when a BOtM special month* doesn't float your boat.






*Not saying that (personally) about this month. MBUK, Mountain Biking, DIRT, and MTB Pro were all available at book stores here so I was familiar with all the UK players BITD, and voted for what I like (in spite of Carl :P ).


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 3:34 pm 
B.o.T.M. Winner / Feature Bike
B.o.T.M. Winner / Feature Bike
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Joined: Tue Dec 13, 2005 3:26 pm
Posts: 6191
Location: Tilting at windmills and shouting at the rain.
ededwards wrote:
I'n not surprised when anyone doesn't like something just find it a bit pointless to post up along the lines of "I don't like the bikes this month so am not going to vote" - thankfully the other 28,000 registered voters who also aren't going to vote don't post up on similar lines.



28,000 registered voters? With a 0.7% turnout every month I wouldn't be getting to excited.

It might be time to audit that member list and get rid of the 27,000 phantom accounts that are nothing more than clutter. Might enable new users to get their first choice user names too.

Edit:
That was unfair, its only 20,000 accounts with 10 or fewer posts and 8000 with no posts.

2000 have made more than 100 posts so I suppose that's the real user base, so if 200 people vote in BOTM then its a 10% turnout.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 4:28 pm 
BoTM Winner
BoTM Winner
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Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:19 pm
Posts: 1328
Location: USA
Edewards, sorry you think my posts are nothing more than predictable Yank trolling. Suppose it would be better just to sit back and watch the Brits continue to bicker with each other ( :wink: :wink: ).

Simply trying to learn more about this months featured bikes and a few people with prodding have posted up some good detailed information.

I like all bikes. Before RBUK my British bike knowledge included BJ's and Hetchins. Not likely but I would like to find a cool Yates or Roberts on my local Craigslist. Unfortunately this week it was all Kleins and WTB's.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:09 pm 
Old School Grand Master
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Joined: Tue Jul 17, 2007 5:13 pm
Posts: 8176
Location: Tredavoe, Cornwall
Could I just say to those good people that have gone to the trouble of entering their bikes in the BOTM compo' this month.... I am very sorry for some of the crass comments made by some on here regarding your pride and joys.

Thanks to you all for making this place as diverse and interesting as it is.



al.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:45 pm 
Pumpy's Bear
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Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:03 pm
Posts: 8145
Location: Hereford
pete_mcc wrote:
ededwards wrote:
I'n not surprised when anyone doesn't like something just find it a bit pointless to post up along the lines of "I don't like the bikes this month so am not going to vote" - thankfully the other 28,000 registered voters who also aren't going to vote don't post up on similar lines.



28,000 registered voters? With a 0.7% turnout every month I wouldn't be getting to excited.

It might be time to audit that member list and get rid of the 27,000 phantom accounts that are nothing more than clutter. Might enable new users to get their first choice user names too.

Edit:
That was unfair, its only 20,000 accounts with 10 or fewer posts and 8000 with no posts.

2000 have made more than 100 posts so I suppose that's the real user base, so if 200 people vote in BOTM then its a 10% turnout.


Fair enough on numbers although the original point stands - if all those not voting post to say they are not voting then we have 1,800 of "all work and no play makes Jack a dull boy" we know how that plays out.


Ductape wrote:
Edewards, sorry you think my posts are nothing more than predictable Yank trolling.

I wasn't referring to your posts rather the usual pot stirrers. I also don't recall mentioning nationality at all. I'm tempted to try something complicated including "but if the cap fits" and a complicated sequence of interconnected emoticons but if I can't see where I'm going with that I'm not sure anyone else has a chance at all.

Good luck in your search for a Roberts or Yates, I'm sure you could get hold of one via the UK and help from here. If you get to that point, you might want to be a bit cautious about using the term BJ which although no doubt sweetening the deal may not be quite what you bargained for.


But as al says, back to the voting.


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