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Coolwall Jan 2011 - Shimano MTB groupsets
Cool 62%  62%  [ 98 ]
Uncool 38%  38%  [ 61 ]
Total votes : 159
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 Post subject: Re: This debate
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:55 pm 
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hydorah wrote:
Quote:

I'd hate to be stuck in a lift with you.

You could send a glass eye to sleep.

al. :roll:

Why are you making insults Al?

What's the problem?

In fairness, you can hardly complain about ad hominem, you've done plenty of it in your replies to me, just been slightly more subtle about it.


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 Post subject: Re: This debate
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:19 pm 
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hydorah wrote:
Quote:

I'd hate to be stuck in a lift with you.

You could send a glass eye to sleep.

al. :roll:


Why are you making insults Al?

What's the problem?


Not so much an insult as an observation.

The problem I have is the arsey way you have tried to patronise. I'm not sure you would recognise this in yourself though? A little like a smart arse school teacher that talks b******* for a living.

The thing is, I bet you're a top bloke face to face. It's just a shame you feel the need to kick the a*** out of a subject that is boring to start with.

al.

ps I'm going to send you a pm so you can swear at me as much as you feel fit. :lol:


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 Post subject: Cool is cool
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:19 pm 
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Glad you came back

I guessed you'd probably be sorting all those quotes out!

I love the way you feel you've been insulted! Not intentional, I've been aiming at the content of your posts not you behind them

For someone whose so utterly convinced of the truth of his opinion, thought you might have been a little more robust, that's ironic to me

My contention remains that your definition of cool doesn't make sense

And the fact you freely go out and buy the stuff you say is uncool is weird

But you feel OK with that, that's been talked out now, so there we go

Me? I use XT because I think it's cool stuff, said that a long time ago

For that alone Shimano is on the coolwall for me, although I had a more in depth description of my opinion on page 4...

Regarding the Coolwall format:

Personally I think this is probably working out really well, as if the system were autocratic we wouldn't be free to go off at tangents and talk as we are

I feel this probably generates a lot of posts... Like ours

It's good that people who are obviously as opinionated as us can bark back and forth at each other like this

This is the first time I've got stuck into the 'what is the nature of cool' sub debate that always pops up

I'm gonna keep a sharp look out for it in the next coolwall

I hope SRAM is the next one


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 Post subject: Re: This debate
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:33 pm 
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al wrote:
hydorah wrote:
Quote:

I'd hate to be stuck in a lift with you.

You could send a glass eye to sleep.

al. :roll:


Why are you making insults Al?

What's the problem?


Not so much an insult as an observation.

The problem I have is the arsey way you have tried to patronise. I'm not sure you would recognise this in yourself though? A little like a smart arse school teacher that talks b******* for a living.

The thing is, I bet you're a top bloke face to face. It's just a shame you feel the need to kick the a*** out of a subject that is boring to start with.

al.

ps I'm going to send you a pm so you can swear at me as much as you feel fit. :lol:


I'll quickly respond here before getting your PM

- Good thing to do by the way

I saw your earlier posts and saw some people attacking them, but didn't get on to you

I noticed you sniping at my posts every now and then but didn't bite, well until it became direct!

Maybe if it's getting too *whatever* for you, you could have unsubscribed?

And yeah I know how I talked - It was because I felt it necessary

I know I'm a smart arse git and I'm not ashamed of it!

I'm sure you're a top bloke face to face, Also

But yeah no bother here, Al - It's just a forum - I love debate! :D

Edit:

Thanks for the PM Al

You're views make sense

I hope we get to talk again in future


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 Post subject: Re: Cool is cool
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:20 pm 
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hydorah wrote:
Glad you came back

I guessed you'd probably be sorting all those quotes out!

I love the way you feel you've been insulted! Not intentional, I've been aiming at the content of your posts not you behind them

Um, I don't feel insulted. I merely feel like you tried
hydorah wrote:
For someone whose so utterly convinced of the truth of his opinion, thought you might have been a little more robust, that's ironic to me

Robust?

Do you see me complaining? I merely pointed out the hypocrisy of complaining to Al, when you were quite prepared to go beyond my words, and talk about me, that's all.

As to being bothered about it, better than you have tried and failed.
hydorah wrote:
My contention remains that your definition of cool doesn't make sense

I guess it will always be one of lifes little mysteries for you.
hydorah wrote:
And the fact you freely go out and buy the stuff you say is uncool is weird

That's because it's entirely disconnected.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:27 pm 
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Right, my last attempt, after that I'm calling it quits, 'cos I'm irritating even myself over this...

Here's the thing...

I'm not conflating or imposing my opinions on items or people, on my assertions of what "cool" is all about. I know, personally, I'm not cool. I know many of the things I like, or think are good, are not cool. But then I can draw the distinction between things that are "cool" and the things I like. They are not one and the same - at times they may align - but that is coincidence. There's no causation in either direction if there is any connection. I care little, nor aspire on those grounds.

In short, I couldn't care less whether I am uncool, nor the things I like or give value to.

But then, let's not get ahead of ourselves on those ground - we're a bunch of enthusiasts, "talking" on internet forums about old bikes and whether certain things are "cool" - let's just say our entire concept is on shaky ground where "cool" is concerned.

There's a universality to it. It's a state. It doesn't or shouldn't need explanation or qualification - it just is.

If it has to be explained it's almost certainly not.

So whether it's Bobby Darrin singing Mack the Knife, or Alfa Romeo cars, there's a certain something that everyone gets.

And believing something is uncool doesn't equate to hate - it's just seeing the wood for the trees. I like most Shimano kit, I think it's largely very good, and it suits me. I'm under no illusions, though, that those beliefs have any bearing, whatsoever, on whether it is, or should be, cool.


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 Post subject: Good post
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:57 pm 
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It's a good post

And like you I'm certainly not gonna get wound up about it

Quite the opposite in fact, I have an endless appetite for debate and sparring

But back to your latest post; I don't agree with this stuff:

"There's a universality to it. It's a state. It doesn't or shouldn't need explanation or qualification - it just is.

If it has to be explained it's almost certainly not.

So whether it's Bobby Darrin singing Mack the Knife, or Alfa Romeo cars, there's a certain something that everyone gets. "

Your comments look attractive at first glance, you write rather well. But they don't bear up to any scrutiny, none at all

Your position here is now dependent upon us all being able to agree that Bobby Darin singing Mack the Knife is cool and that Alfa Romeos are cool

Here's the quote again in the light of what I have just pointed out:

"There's a universality to it. It's a state. It doesn't or shouldn't need explanation or qualification - it just is.

If it has to be explained it's almost certainly not.

So whether it's Bobby Darrin singing Mack the Knife, or Alfa Romeo cars, there's a certain something that everyone gets. "

Do you see it? the logic isn't flawed, it is in ruin

There is no absolute! there is 'true' there is no 'fact'

Those are yet more debates! people will always have different values and metrics and arrive at different conclusions accordingly

But as I say if that's what you want to think, that is your business!

I think it's handshake/live and let live time


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:03 pm 
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:shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Good post
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:48 pm 
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Sorry, but I couldn't let slide the idea that Bobby Darin singing Mack the Knife being questionable as cool... ;-)
hydorah wrote:
Your position here is now dependent upon us all being able to agree that Bobby Darin singing Mack the Knife is cool and that Alfa Romeos are cool

Are you saying they're not?

Note: this is not the same as saying you either like Bobby Darin, like the song Mack the Knife, or like his rendition of it - merely him singing it, is most definitely cool - as are Alfa Romeos - whether people like them as cars, or not - they're still cool.
hydorah wrote:
So whether it's Bobby Darrin singing Mack the Knife, or Alfa Romeo cars, there's a certain something that everyone gets. "

Do you see it? the logic isn't flawed, it is in ruin

Only if you make a mistake and conflate "appreciate as being cool" with "what I like" or "what I think is good".

As I've mentioned, previously, there are some epitomes of cool, that practically everybody agrees with - Miles Davis, Fonz and his leather jacket, Steve McQueen as the cooler-king, Nina Simone, Dean Martin, David Niven - I could go on...

They don't need any explanation - in fact it'd ruin the concept - it just is. None of that requires that people necessarily like or appreciate their talents, or any other aspect of them, to get that they are cool.

When you overthink it, it becomes something it's not - it's not something you weigh up the pros and cons, or evaluate some criteria or value - it's like an instant recognition, not a thought out concept based on values, rationale, or metrics.


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 Post subject: Well!
PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:12 pm 
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OK so you come back with yet more examples

- Which are basically the same so just for fun I'll get into three of them at random

Let pick Alfas off that list, Dean Martin and the Fonz Ehhhhhh to complete the trio

The Fonz was Henry Winkler a forty year old dude who was pretending to be in High School, what was his game eh? nuff said

Dean Martin? What the hell is cool about Dean Martin? Did he have any talents?

Alfa! Most car nuts will have owned one in their lifetime cos it's attainable Italiano, will learn their lesson and never buy another

Unreliable, rust-bucket rubbish with resale prices that fall faster than a skydiver with a concrete parachute - Because of those facts

They are not Ferrari or Lamborghini

And now this debate (between us) has become purely about the nature of cool

Therefore utterly irrelevant to the coolwall question!

I think if we see anyone else have a similar debate in any future coolwalls we should point them here

That'd teach 'em!


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