Mid 40's BSA (?) with Lauterwasser bars: "The Dreadnought"

Update 25/01/2023: the original photo hosting is long dead but I've done my best to put the original pics back in place. The bike eventually looked like this, and the original story is below...



May 2014: An eBay scoop at the right price. It was up as a 1960's New Hudson but I think some or all of that isn't right. Start with some pics:






(Edit 25/01/2023: these images are on a hard drive somewhere and I'll reinstate them when I find them)

So normally I'd stick a date on these by using the Sturmey Archer hub, but I couldn't spot a number. The SA shifter is a 1950-1953 3-4 speed model and the AW-8 hub appears to be 3-speed and the same vintage, based purely on the script. The drive-side crank is a chrome Raleigh one while the non-drive side is not chromed, so one of those doesn't belong. I think it's the drive-side which has been replaced, because the handlebars are not chromed and appear to be wearing what's left of their original paint.

Three things that make me think it's a New Hudson are the fork crown which matches all the pictures I've found New Hudsons from that era, there is a little cable guide wheel where the top tube and the seat tube meet and all the New Hudsons seem to have this; also the bakelite pump is engraved New Hudson.

Two things, maybe three, don't seem to be quite right. First is the brakes - surely it would have had stirrup brakes in the 50's? I had pondered if maybe it had been treated to an upgrade in the 60's with Raleigh brake components, but there isn't any evidence of it ever being fitted with stirrup brakes and no hole or mounting point for the rocker pivot which carries the rod to the back brake. Third are the mudguards which look later era and are Raleigh items. I could be wrong, but they look like they fit the bike a bit too well for them to be aftermarket. All else I know is that Raleigh bought out New Hudson in 1953 and killed the brand off in 1957-58, but I can't seem to find any evidence of NHs wearing Raleigh components like the BSAs and Triumphs did.

So who knows? Everything works. SA hub shifts fine despite not looking like it's ever been adjusted, Dynohub works fine and both lights light, brakes seem to be fine too. Even what's left of the brightwork seems to be ok and it's just buried under a layer of grime.

If you've got a better idea then please let me know

Current plans are just just give to it a once-over, wire it up properly, pop my Brooks on it and lose the guards. I might flip the bars because I think they're upside down and I'll get a bit more reach with the stem the other way round, but this appears to be how they came with curious geometry with a 57cm top tube and 50cm seat tube to compensate.

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

Here is Oldscholar's one - maybe what mine should have looked like?

viewtopic.php?t=165326

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

I love that. It's like a bike / Dreadnought cross. The massive centrally mounted headlamp is just great.

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

Nice bike and a great project. Those bars are great!!!

The Lugs make me think this is a Raleigh made frame, but would need to see detailed pics.

Rim brakes could be correct. I can't see the holes in the down tube for rods. The brakes, again look Raleigh but it is hard to tell. The brake levers look period as well.

Have you taken the front lamp off yet??? The lamp bracket will have a makers symbol on it.

Will look forward to this project.

Re:

The Dreadnought - I love it

I got some spannertime this evening and gave it a quick once over. Hub bearings, Dynohub, oil the Sturmey, bottom bracket, pedals, brakes and electrics. All the bearings were dry but in good condition. Even the pedals nipped up nicely with a bit of grease. Some new pics...

(Edit 25/01/2023: these images are on a hard drive somewhere and I'll reinstate them when I find them)

Flipped the bars and turned the stem round:





Ok, so onto more serious stuff - identifying the bike. This is definitely a New Hudson pump. No doubt in my mind about it:



The saddle is definitely a Hercules:



A head-on view on the headtube which could be the clue. The badge is missing and there are no drillings:



It looks like New Hudson badges had two rivets, one either side. Raleighs definitely have one near the top and bottom. If you look at the feint outline that's left, you can see a kind of curved diamond shape at the bottom and maybe a curve at the top. Any ideas?

There are two numbers on the bike. One is on the side of the seat tube lug (774C):



The other is on the bottom bracket shell (26203Z):



To further confuse things, it's got a different brake lever on both sides and while the chrome Raleigh crank is 165mm, the unchromed one is 180mm! Can't see any Raleigh branding on the brake calipers but they look the same as the ones on my RSW. There is also a painted red pin stripe running down the front edge of the forks. Seat tube is 25.8mm according to the verniers. So I'm no better off identifying it!

I did ride it to the pub though, and it rides great. It's damn heavy and feels like it weighs in well over 16kg but it's comfortable to ride and sure feeling. I've got the rubber grips back on the handlebars and it gets up a really good pace in 3rd gear. Cornering is another matter and you have to wrestle it round corners, but this might be because I'm used to riding twitchy track bikes with very little trail on the forks. And it's GREAT riding along pitch black cycle paths with that beautiful orange glow in front of you from a real bulb!

Re:

Hi, my two pennies, this looks like the usual 1940's unknown, and it will be very difficult to nail down exactly what year it is, without access to someone who recognizes the serial numbers, the forks and lovely bars are the key I suspect, the semi russ fork sets it firmly from late thirties to early fifties, most 'roadster' manufacturers had there 'lightweight' attempts, but tried to keep costs down, so my guess is not late thirties, or early fifties, its probably a post war merge of styles, with a sixties/seventies update. Hope it helps. Terry

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

That's lovely that is, and a great find.

I'm no expert on bikes of that period, so normal disclaimers apply, but these are my thoughts.

Those are Lauterwasser bars, as designed by Jack Lauterwasser in the 30s. They are meant to be mounted the way you have them now. It looks like someone flipped the bars (and reversed the stem) to make the bike into a more comfortable roadster type machine. Soma in the US are now making a modern version.

http://www.somafab.com/archives/product ... -handlebar

Rim brakes would be correct for those bars. Oldscholar's bike is a 'Standard' or 'Light' Roadster, with bolted seatstays, whereas yours is more of a 'Sports' or 'Light Tourist' type. Rod brakes are found on North road type bars.

What size are the wheels? If they are 26 x 1 1/4 it would point towards the bike being 30s, 40s or early 50s. I think I'm right in saying that frame angles tended to steepen towards the end of the 30s and though yours are slack by modern standards they could be even slacker before then.

The Raleigh crank could well be a replacement when the original wore out. The forks don't have the usual Raleigh crown.

The Old Bicycle Showroom had a 1930s New Hudson for sale and although the frame is different it might help identification.

http://www.theoldbicycleshowroom.co.uk/ ... 2582-p.asp

Vintage Bike Cave also had a New Hudson frame listed which has the same 'ballpoint' seat stays as yours, though different lugwork.

http://vintagebikecave.com/shop/frb005- ... me-58-c-t/

They also had a head badge for sale should it turn out to be correct.

Is the seatstay cable pulley band on or brazed? I've seen reference to the latter in relation to New Hudson, though I don't suppose they were the only ones doing it. The mudguards don't look a very good fit so perhaps they are later replacements.

Anyway it's a lovely thing and as OldTel say most probably 1940s though maybe at a push late 30s. If it were mine I'd keep the original patina just as you have and try to replace any out of period parts with something more in keeping.

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

I'm wondering if the frame is pre war triumph. The badge outline looks similar to the triumph badge. Triumph usually used three rivets for a metal badge and I believe did transfer badges as well.

Looks great now. Are you going to restore it or keep it as is?

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

Thanks for the info on the Lauterwasser bars. Pretty sought after, so I'd better look after them!

To confirm: 26 x 1-3/8 wheels and the guide pulley is band-on.

I had a search to learn more about the bars and stumbled across this link on Flickr. Assuming they have identified their bike correctly, the frame is almost identical to mine. Take a look:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/16706966@N07/6896780212

So I think it's most likely a BSA but, like you say, without someone confirming the numbers it's difficult to say for sure. I read on another link that painted bars were quite typical of the wartime period and for a short time nothing wore chrome. I wonder if this is an early 40s bike which maybe got a Sturmey Archer upgrade in the 50s and then a few other bits replaced later as it wore out.

I'm planning to keep it looking exactly as it is because it takes a long time to earn patina like this and it would be a shame to hide it. As I said, I've given it a thorough once over and mechanically it's in excellent condition, the bearings were all dry but clean and have nipped up perfectly (even the pedals), the dyno and light work and were just wired up incorrectly and the hub shifts fine. Now I know a bit more about the bike I think I'm going to keep my eyes open for a BSA crank and I'll probably stash that old saddle in the loft in favour of my battered old Brooks. It looks great, but I'll kill it commuting on it.

Re: 1950-1953 (?) New Hudson. Or is it a Raleigh?

Thats a characterful, big solid bike!