Retrobike Forum Index

It is currently Fri Dec 09, 2016 1:10 pm

* Login   * Register * Search  * FAQ



Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Author Message
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:39 pm 
Old School Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 5785
Location: Lost in Translation
ededwards wrote:
I'd totally disagree about Dura Ace though, the last good looking group that they made was 7400

7400 was the era of grey paint!

The derailleurs were nice, I'll grant. The hubs were heavy and not well sealed. The 7400 cranks were square and boxy - though the 7410 was elegant. Compare the light 7700 hubs with their labyrinth seals, aluminium front axle, titanium freehub body, smooth shell forms, light quick releases...

Quote:
and the new stuff is really hideous

Ah, you see I wouldn't know.

Quote:
Campag Super Record rear and front mechs
Campag Super Record small flange hubs with MA40s (would go with GP4s but tubs)
Dura Ace 7400 chainset
Suntour Superbe Pro brake calipers (or Campag Deltas, tough call this one)
Dura Ace 7400 aero brake levers
Simplex downtube shifters
Cinelli bars (66-44) and 1A stem
Rolls on a Super Record seatpost (if there was a long enough one :roll: )

An idiosyncratic choice but interested whether others would pick and mix or go down the groupset route.

Didn't we do this before? :)

Mechs - Mavic 840 or Suntour Superbe Pro, but probably Mavic.

Hubs - has to be cassette hubs. I can't be doing with bent axles and screw-on blocks. Mavic 571HG, or Dura Ace 7700.

Cranks - C-Record, Superbe Pro, or maybe later Mavic. It would depend on the bike. Most of my chainrings are 130mm bcd, so that handicaps Campag choices.

Brakes - Superbe Pro or Mavic 451 - both made by Dia Compe in any case. Campag Chorus Monoplanar get an honourable mention.

Pedals - Campag Record TBS or Suntour Superbe Pro ... or XC Pro in fact - same bodies, but with grease-injectable axles. Or even Campag Triomphe. I really like those Triomphe pedals.

Headset - later Record, Mavic, or Shimano XTR. I can pretend I'm on the Paris-Roubaix.

These aren't independent choices though (C-Record cranks would favour TBS pedals. A late-model Mavic 631/2 would see me leaning towards the Triomphes).

And of course it all depends so much on the frame...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:17 pm 
Pumpy's Bear
Pumpy's Bear
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 10, 2005 10:03 pm
Posts: 8145
Location: Hereford
one-eyed_jim wrote:
7400 was the era of grey paint!

The derailleurs were nice, I'll grant. The hubs were heavy and not well sealed. The 7400 cranks were square and boxy - though the 7410 was elegant.


Was 7400 painted grey? I had a groupset that I could swear was 7400 and that was all silver (indeed it is the groupset on Jerome's lovely Merckx posted on here) put I expect, as often, fragile memory has betrayed me.

Still like these cranks though


Attachments:
7400 crank.jpg
7400 crank.jpg [ 132.54 KiB | Viewed 3081 times ]
Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:28 pm 
Old School Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2008 12:21 pm
Posts: 5785
Location: Lost in Translation
ededwards wrote:
Was 7400 painted grey?

Bits of it were. Brake levers, shift levers, STIs...

Quote:
Still like these cranks though

I really can't get on with the mixture of curves and planes. It can't seem to decide which decade it belongs to. Still, each to his own.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:33 pm 
Gold Trader
Gold Trader
User avatar

Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 11:14 pm
Posts: 3851
Location: Somerset
I agree that it depends on the frame.

Italian bikes should never have anything else on them IMO.
A Merckx would wear either well.
I would only hang Dura Ace on something like a Merlin or a Miyata.

My own road bike wears a mixture, Shimano shifts well, Campagnolo looks nice, so shifty clicky things are Japanese, twirly looky things are Italian. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:10 pm 
Old School Grand Master
User avatar

Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:49 am
Posts: 4061
Location: A veritable floating palace
Personally, I reckon Campy and Shimano both look ugly now, and neither of them make stuff I'm interested in on the road side.. Carbon is supposed to look all serious and workmanlike, but in the past I just think they cared more about how it looked.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:49 pm 
Concours Judge
Concours Judge
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 3:59 pm
Posts: 8171
Location: a proper EU country
Stick Legs wrote:
I agree that it depends on the frame.

Italian bikes should never have anything else on them IMO.
A Merckx would wear either well.
I would only hang Dura Ace on something like a Merlin or a Miyata.

My own road bike wears a mixture, Shimano shifts well, Campagnolo looks nice, so shifty clicky things are Japanese, twirly looky things are Italian. :lol:



Agreement here. Spotted a Koga Miyata FullPro Carbolite with full graphite Croce d Aune not long ago. Looked so crap. The Campa was much too flamboyant, romantic for that frame.

Shimano just looks right on all my Japanese rides. Miyata US did a Campa spec bike though, the early 80s Team Miyata SL with Super Record. Didn't look bad at all on that one.

Also have quite a lot Campa in my stable, but that is on the Dutch rides. Dutch rides not necessarely require Campa though. 'Dutch' is with a pragmatic attitude, so for example use what you have laying around or what you think is best for a particular task. Recently got hands on a Champion Mondial with a mix of DA, NR, N-GS and Ofmega. Typical.

Italian bikes, yes, I think Campa is the obvious choice than.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:03 pm 
Gold Trader
Gold Trader
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:19 pm
Posts: 7006
Location: Odense, Denmark
ededwards wrote:

Campag Super Record rear and front mechs
Campag Super Record small flange hubs with MA40s (would go with GP4s but tubs)
Dura Ace 7400 chainset
Suntour Superbe Pro brake calipers (or Campag Deltas, tough call this one)
Dura Ace 7400 aero brake levers
Simplex downtube shifters
Cinelli bars (66-44) and 1A stem
Rolls on a Super Record seatpost (if there was a long enough one :roll: )


Ooh good spinoff. Have to participate

Mavic SSC rear and front mechs
Mavic SSC small flange hubs with MA40s (would go with GP4s but tubs)
Super Record Chainset and record BB
Record calipers
Nuovo Record brake levers
Simplex/Mavic retrofriction downtube shifters
Cinelli bars (66-44/Criterium?) and 1R stem
Cinelli Unica Nitor on a Nuovo Record seatpost
Suntour "Winner" 6 or 7 speed freewheel
regina "Oro" chain
Campag Superleggeri pedals (Or Time Equipe)
Record headset

I have nearly all this kit - but no frame to put it on. Am seriously considering getting Dave Yates or Tornado in Odense to build me one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:11 pm 
Gold Trader
Gold Trader
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jun 20, 2007 11:19 pm
Posts: 7006
Location: Odense, Denmark
Stick Legs wrote:
If you mean technology then Shimano have had the upper hand since 1994.


I've had an electronic DA system to play with for a few months now and you are so so right.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:41 pm 
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
retrobike rider / Gold Trader
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:32 pm
Posts: 1503
Location: Southport, UK Member No:411
One must look past the aesthetics and see deeper into the materials used in their products, and the functionality/fashion of the time.
Essentially, it was Shimano that created the necessity for Campagnolo to produce cheaper components in order to continue trading. Shimano offered what Campagnolo never had, in terms of low budget, low grade, high spec kit. The materials were questionable, but Shimano's gimics and functionality pushed them forward.
Campagnolo had long been at the forefront of road racing components, and also held big contracts with Ferrari to manufacture most of their wheels and engine parts. But, the far east was offering more for your money on the bike front.
Disposable bike components!
Race them for a few years and then replace it all at relatively low cost. You get all the features of the top race bike, but on a massive budget.
Campagnolo fought back (forceably) and started to offer graphite versions of their Athena and Chorus groupsets. This was their demise. They specced lower grade alloys that had a slacker grain structure which would lose their shine much quicker. They had to meet the demands of the market in order to survive.
Their profits were hurt badly by Shimano in the early 90's and it took sometime before Campagnolo could regain their purpose and lead in the market. They simply could not compete, and had to downscale and rethink the whole company structure.
As somebody has already said, the new Super record surpasses anything Shimano have out currently, and the attention to detail in its materials longevity will ensure a far longer life than its competitors, making it the better investment.


Last edited by Benandemu on Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:56 am 
Retro Guru

Joined: Sun Dec 14, 2008 2:11 pm
Posts: 303
Benandemu wrote:
One must look past the aesthetics and see deeper into the materials used in their products, and the functionality/fashion of the time.
Essentially, it was Shimano that created the necessity Campagnolo to produce cheaper components in order to continue trading. Shimano offered what Campagnolo never had, in terms of low budget, low grade, high spec kit. The materials were questionable, but Shimano's gimics and functionality pushed them forward.


To continue that theme it was the US bike boom that did it. For some reason the Europeans thought they could ignore it. Campagnolo in particular thought they could leave the bottom end of the market to everybody else and simply cream off the top end for themselves. The Japanese stepped up production quickly and supplied the hardware for millions of bikes a year, making a fortune in the process which Shimano sunk into R&D.

Of course Campagnolo weren't the only manufacturer to rest on their laurels. Suntour showed that the Japanese could do it too. Their patent on the slant parallelogram design meant that they had an advantage when it came to rear mechs, but when that patent expired the rest of the world were straight in. Shimano realised that taking the slant parallelogram and adding a sprung top pivot would improve the design further. They had clearly been waiting with that one, the year after Suntour's patent expired they introduced the indexed Dura Ace rear mech. Suntour never really got their indexing sorted out and more or less sunk less than ten years later.

It really is thanks to Shimano that development continued at such a pace for so long. I think there is evidence now, on all sides, of change for change's sake rather than to improve the breed.

However, all this talk about aesthetics...

I just don't get it. If something works right it should look right, as soon as you start pratting about with aesthetics you are messing with the functionality. Form should always follow function. That is the way, the truth and the light. On the dark side lies french car design. :wink:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 22 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Apple Tree, keithglos, Midlife, Yahoo [Bot] and 27 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  

About Us

Follow Retrobike

Other cool stuff

All content © 2005-2015 Retrobike unless otherwise stated.
Cookies Policy.
bikedeals - the best bike deals in one place
FatCOGS - Fat Chance Owner's Group

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group