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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 10:13 am 
Newbie

Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 5:38 pm
Posts: 3
The frame tubes are parallel and at 72 deg, did the European come with a lamp boss on the front fork? which mine has and I have been checking the large flange Normandy hubs that where original when I got the bike large oval slots the front with a code of 42 79 and the rear 41 77, the rear has the five gear block on one side and the thread for the fixed cog, not fitted on the other. These were in use late 60's to 80's. The Holdsworth, Claud Butler frame number sheet https://drive.google.com/drive/u/0/fold ... TNKZkN4TmM mentions 4 digit frame numbers used in the 60's and 70's where any frames produced with the brake stops on the top during this time.
Thanks


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 3:13 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
"4 Digit serial systems" are a misleading choice of words. Only reason called as such is that they never reached high enough numbers to reach 5 digits. The initial Holdworth and later Holdsworthy/Claud systems that 0050 likely belongs to could be called "5 digit systems" because volumes did reach 5 digits. All Holdsworthy systems for all "brands" were all simple sequential systems.

I think 0050 is a c.1959 in first year of Holdsworthy Claud serial system. The simple fact that oiler is on top of BB places it as prior to 1965. Fork crown as Peachy! says is also typical of early 60's.

The "4 Digit system" used in early 60's was only used for Factory and Shop Holdsworth models. The "4 digit system" used in early 70's were all Factory customized builds of catalogue models often higher end and often for small shop branding. There appears to be nothing customized on 0050 and it was a common plain gauge 531 CB frame for early 60's.

Also interesting that when your frame had prior restoration, the fellow you purchased kit from placed at 1957 - he was close.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 5:48 pm 
Newbie

Joined: Fri May 08, 2020 5:38 pm
Posts: 3
Thanks for your years of experience,
I have been looking at pictures of frames from that era and with the TT brake cable stops at the top and have not been able to see any with the hooped cable guides (see picture above) was this standard on the 59 European or an added tweek.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 6:45 pm 
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
BoTM & rBoTM Winner
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Joined: Wed Jan 17, 2018 8:42 pm
Posts: 3791
Location: VCC Member 5558 East Riding of Yorkshire
Aviator wrote:
Thanks for your years of experience,
I have been looking at pictures of frames from that era and with the TT brake cable stops at the top and have not been able to see any with the hooped cable guides (see picture above) was this standard on the 59 European or an added tweek.


Not sure... but I like it, seems like a good idea.


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2020 8:39 pm 
Old School Hero

Joined: Mon Dec 08, 2014 9:32 pm
Posts: 199
Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada
Short answer is yes, likely an "added tweak". Looong answer follows:

My observations would be that those loops paired with stops were sometimes seen on builds by individual builders during the 60's or with "made to measure" frames. Likely (I've read expressed by others as well) that a lot of these early Clauds were contracted out to builders for the trade that were often former CB employees. Different builders had their own ways of doing things. Even serial numbers on these early 60's Holdsworthy Clauds are not stamped in any consistent font or BB location.

The best example of an early European that I've seen is #7500 (c.1960) in dwscrimshaw's Excel list. Forget where I saw originally (probably the Bay) but I'll attach pics. It has everything a catalogue 10 speed European has, with no loops paired with stops on top of TT. I have seen at least another European and an early Classique with TT stops but do not recollect paired loops. Loops paired with stops aren't seen in low resolution catalogue pics.

My own "made to measure" 1968 Claud Super Torino (Purple colour) does have same loops paired with stops but under TT. I wish there had been loops placed with derailleur cable stops for the bar end shifter cables! It is thought that this was likely built by well respected Bill Gray whose workshop was behind George Stratton's Bike shop. (both former Claud employees)

IMHO, Doug


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